Fulvia coupe handling concern

[JFCX]

Hello everybody,

I am currently looking to buy a Lancia Fulvia coupe 1.3 or 1.6 in order to participate in historical rallies, which as always been a dream. I recently moved to Austria for work and do not have yet the network required to spend hours doing mechanic on the car for it to work properly (garage and tools missing)
As a mechanical engineer passionated by Lancias I have been doing a few trips to Italy recently in order to try "fully restored" cars sold at higher end prices as I would like to get a ready to use car and keep finding floors in cars that should be working, I think, much better than they actually do.

Since I never got the possibility to get a good reference drive from a car properly restored I would like to get your opinion regarding the play I always encountered in the driving wheel. The technical manual mentions a maximum play of 1cm but the one I have tried had more around 3 to 5 cm which provides a really weird and unsafe feeling in the turns which is surprising regarding the handling qualities attributed to the car on reviews and forums.

I understand that old timers would not handle like modern cars do (and I do not expect them to) but I found very surprising the significant amount of play I always encounter in cars that have been said to be restored by " mechanical experts".

Could you please, based on your experience tell me if it is normal to get such feeling or if like I am suspecting, I am facing sellers that are more specialist in cloth polishing than proper mechanics capable of properly restoring a car...

Many thanks in advance

[Andrea Nistri]

Yes, there are many sellers specialized in cloth polishing. The steering wheel play should be as stated by Lancia although for the UK MOT up to 2.5 cm when the front wheels are straight forward is acceptable. There are several causes for excessive play which can be adjusted on the steering box as well as on the steering idler box via the adjuster screws. However, this is a limited solution. If the play is large, the bushes inside the steering idler are shot (lack of lubrication, worn plastic bushes etc) and need replacing. Moreover, there might be a problem with the worm and roller of the steering box: this is a more complex trouble to sort out. I don't live very far from the Austrian border and you are welcome to contact me. Send me a private message. Andrea

[Huib]

Welcome on the forum. You give me the right words.

A Fulvia when in order has equal to or better handling than most modern cars. The speed of the Fulvia is not in the muscles but in the bones. The Fulvia is basically unstable like homo sapiens and fighter jets. Computers are used to turn the instability into agility and speed. I am preparing a posting in a new thread on this subject.

The steering problem you describe is symptomatic. One of the many unsolved problems. You don't say if the play is dynamic (when driving) or static (car stationary). If static the steering box should be in the centre position, spokes of steering wheel horizontal, wheels straight when checking the play. At the extremes the play is about 10 mm more. The book says 10 mm max (in the centre). We achieve usually 1 mm. Adjustment to 0 mm is possible but not wise. It may damage the worm or the roller when temperature changes. If you really want the sharpest possible steering it is a process. There are plenty of rally roads here in the border region between Holland and Belgium. With a good number of traffic bumps and roads suddenly changing to cobblestones or loose sand or mud. We do test drives there. The owner drives and I navigate and watch his muscles and bones when circumstances suddenly change. When the job is done properly neither the car nor the driver will give a flinch and keep an awesome speed.

The attitude, caster and camber angles etc have to be correct. Subframe rubbers ok. Subframe mounts ok. Some cars have different wishbones left and right. Replacing the silent blocs without the proper tools is difficult. A previous owner may have swapped a wishbone with a donor car. We measure the wishbones. As it happens the car we just started restoration on had two different lower wishbones.

If it is a series 1 Fulvia the canvas Hardy disc may be coming apart. This disc is the connection between steering shaft and steering box. It consists of 5 layers canvas with 4 pieces 90 degree segments of spring steel sandwiched around the centre layer. By now the steel has rusted away on all Hardy discs. If so the canvas layers start to separate. Imitation Hardy discs do not have the steel segments. which results in a lot of play right from new and infinite play (torn in two) after some months. It is apparently not against the law to sell these discs.
The Mercedes discs fit but they are no longer available and they are too hard. They don't have the subtlety of the original Lancia discs. We make our own discs and use natural canvas with segments of stainless spring steel.

Similar story for the conversion kits for the wishbone bushes which are on the market. Wrong dimensions. Wrong thread. Wrong length of the thread. We make our own.

Those are just a few examples. We have tripled our capacity for bodywork on Fulvia's over the last year. Later today or tomorrow I will post some pictures of the car we are starting on on station 3. The present owner bought it recently, restored and all and brought it to us for inspection. We became more suspicious everywhere we looked and finally decided to strip the car and put it in an oven without oxygen to vaporize all organic material such as paint, filler and wax. Terrible. Botch job. Even worse than not having done anything. I was suspicious if the car was straight. We already correct it on two axes. We are now building a special jig to correct old accident damage at the rear.

The subframe also a total botch job squared. We do have a jig to repair subframes. Does not work on this one. We have to build another one.

This is car number 8 that came in over the last 12 months which was recently bought (most in Italy) in supposedly good condition but in reality a total wreck underneath. My standard is that a car must be safe enough to allow my daughter to drive it. That has nothing to do with my daughter's driving capabilities but everything with the car. Well, these 8 I would not have dared drive myself.

[Andrea Nistri]

Of course the Hardy disc is present on series 1 cars only, Andrea

[Huib]

This car is a good example showing several things:

1. sloppy welding to close holes for inspection. Certainly not to restore strength.

2. Bent horizontally and vertically.

3. No specific Fulvia knowledge

4. No understanding of the forces in the A pillar. Bad sills around A pillar and C pillar are typical for Fulvia

5. No understanding of the forces running counter to a leaf spring such as the rear springs.

Measurements showed the car was not straight on several axes. Correcting also resulted in seams around bonnet, doors and bootlid being equal

[Huib]

The right front wheel arch.

201 shows sloppy welding

202 the original subframe mounting box has three sides of 2 mm steel. The top is 4 mm steel (two layers of 2mm). The 4th side is the L shaped diafragm of the A pillar which extends a few cm between inner and outer sill. Here the subframe box has two sides of 1 mm steel. The diafragm is partly missing. The side at the front is completely missing. The top is only 2mm.

203 and 204 are pics of a sill repair. The end of the outer sill runs behind the wing and is welded to the diafragm which is also the 4th side of the subframe mounting box.

This sill construction is unique for the Fulvia coupé. Very strong but also the Achilles heel. When driving water collects behing the wing. There is no hole to let the water out. Every coupé comes with a subscription for a sill repair every ten years. The alternative is to drill holes to let water out and wax it with a very good high temperature wax. If the wax melts in the sun it flows to the lowest point which is where you drilled the holes. It clogs the holes. Thus wax which does not melt below 180 degree C and which is not washed away by water.

Same story for the sill construction at the C pillar.

[Huib]

Repairs under the rear seat where het rear springs are attached.

This is new for us on coupés without rear collision damage. A leaf spring requires that a bar is mounted above it. I have wirtten where that bar starts. It runs to the mounting point for the shackle at the rear of the spring and continues to become the bumper mount.

That bar is missing under the rear seat from the shock absorber mount to the sprng mount. Instead the forces make a detour through the double wheel arch and the inner sill. This is where the deformation starts when the car is hit from the rear. The weak point might thus be there by design. We have seen deformation there before on berlina, coupé and Zagato as the result of accident damage. On Zagato's also as the result of metal fatigue as the body of the Zagato does not add any to the overl strength. Now we see it also on coupé.

Also you can see there was no effort at all to restore original strength.

The car was "restored" by the previous owner. Looked very pretty with new paint. Fortunately it was not driven as the engine has a blown head gasket and the new owner trailered it straight to us.
The rear part of the subframe had also all but rusted away. Paper thin steel wrapped around it to pass inspection.

Even with a brand new steering box and a brand new Hardy disc the handling would be BAD.

You think this is an exception? Every two months one comes in like that. Most straight from Italy. Buy prices ranged from 5.000 to 30.000 euro. Does not make a difference.

I know Andrea's cars very well. Well kept is an under statement. No overdue maintenance at all. Play on the steering would be solved by a single adjusment or single replacement of a part.

On this coupé we are now working on? A trillion new steering boxes would not solve the handling problem. We overhauled the steering box already. Was not too bad actually. Still have to check the cardanic joints in the steering shaft. With such bad sills and bad subframe outriggers the subframe may have been pulling the car by the steering shaft. That is too much for the cardanic joints.

[Ed Levin]

If there is excessive "play" in the steering wheel, it may be any one of the causes that Andrea and Huib note, but it may also be quite simple.

First, check the level of fluid in the steering box. If the fluid level is correct, you can adjust the play with the nut and concentric set-screw at the top of the steering box. With the steering wheel centered (front wheels pointing straight ahead), loosen the nut with a 19mm wrench and with a large screwdriver turn the set screw clockwise just a few degrees. Check the steering play. If there's still too much, turn another few degrees; if there's none, back off a few degrees (as Huib notes, you do not want 0 play). Once you have it right, hold the set screw position with the screwdriver and tighten the nut.

That won't cure the problem if the steering box gears are excessively worn, or if there's some other problem, like bad rod ends. But it's the first thing to adjust, IMO. If that doesn't work, only then look elsewhere.

[Huib]

Hi Ed

I do it a bit differently nowadays.
Remember that the shaft is hangiing from the adjust screw so you want to adjust truning the screw upwards.
Also when adjusting by turning down you never know how far you are away from bottoming.

With the steering box in the centre position I turn the adjust screw all the way down till it does not go any further and the back it off half a turn. The steering may be all right or it may need more adjusting. The roller and the worm may have uneven spots. One may need some fingerspitzengefühl and test driving. From that half a turn out I may turn back in 1/8 of a turn. Never more. And also I back off n steps of 1/8 of a turn.

Some times it is neccesary to start over agin by turning the screw in full stop. I may then go to a different position.

[Ilo1962]

The day my Fulvia 1600 HF developed a significant play in the steering wheel, around the center position, this is what I found: (see image)

Caveat Emptor.

Kind regards
Maurizio