My friend owns the following Lancia Flaminia Sport Zagato.
Chassis #82400-1380
Engine #82300-2516 (2.5 liter engine)
1960 model
However, this car has as shorter propeller shaft as approx.30cm
than the standard Zagato model. Also, a casted aluminum bellhousing is
fitted between the engine and the propeller shaft in which a flywheel
is located.
Therefore, the cylinder block is in a different shape from the standard
engine so that the a casted aluminum bellhousing has to be fitted on end
of the cylinder block.
He recently rebuilt the engine and found out that both of the crankshaft and
the cam are machined from iron material, not from casted iron material.
We know that Lancia D20, D23, D24 sport cars have been scrapped by Lancia,
but the engines have been survived. However, it must be so hard to find
this engine in the market at the moment.
We would like to know if the engine on his Flaminia is from Lancia D20,
D23 and D24 that were racing at Le Man in 50s.
Also, we would like to know if D20, D23 and D24 had a shorter propeller shaft like
his Flaminia with a bellhousing located in the same position.
Rare engine in the market?
-
P. de R. Leclercq
Re: Rare engine in the market?
Hello.
Very interesting I must say.
I cannot answer all of your questions but I can make a few comments.
Regarding the crankshaft, I believe that all Lancias up to 1970 had forged steel crankshafts, beautifully fully machined in such models as Aprilia, Aurelia, Flaminia and so on. I cannot remember the specification for the flywheel, but Flavias and Fulvias had a two piece flywheel, with a cast-iron centre (better for the clutch) and a steel outer section, for strength and because the starter ring gear was directly machined and hardened in situ.
Turning to the D series of sports-racing cars, I would be surprised if Lancia after the change of ownership in 1955 revisted these, The engines which were made in various capacities up to 3.8 litres for the D25 are easy to recognise since they all had four overhead camshafts.
Finally there was a V-6 2.5 litre prototype that had single overhead camshafts; I believe that one of these engines found its way into a B20 that is now in England, but I have no further details of this type.
I look forward to hearing more about this obviously special car.
Paul
Very interesting I must say.
I cannot answer all of your questions but I can make a few comments.
Regarding the crankshaft, I believe that all Lancias up to 1970 had forged steel crankshafts, beautifully fully machined in such models as Aprilia, Aurelia, Flaminia and so on. I cannot remember the specification for the flywheel, but Flavias and Fulvias had a two piece flywheel, with a cast-iron centre (better for the clutch) and a steel outer section, for strength and because the starter ring gear was directly machined and hardened in situ.
Turning to the D series of sports-racing cars, I would be surprised if Lancia after the change of ownership in 1955 revisted these, The engines which were made in various capacities up to 3.8 litres for the D25 are easy to recognise since they all had four overhead camshafts.
Finally there was a V-6 2.5 litre prototype that had single overhead camshafts; I believe that one of these engines found its way into a B20 that is now in England, but I have no further details of this type.
I look forward to hearing more about this obviously special car.
Paul
-
donbay
Rare engine in the market?
Many thanks for the information.
I realize engines installed in D series of sports-racing cars.
The engine on my friend's Flaminia is OHV that has only 1 camshaft between V banks. This should be
the same as a standard engine. No difference is found on it from a standard engine.
How about the propeller shaft? A standard Flaminia has propeller shafts separated in 2 pieces while our Flaminia has 1 piece propeller shaft shorter than a standard 2 piece one in over all length.
Also a fly wheel is located between the engine and the propeller shaft while a standard Flaminia has it between radiator and engine.
Also a casted aluminum made bellhousing surrounding the fly wheel is fitted between engine and propeller shaft. This bellhousing in approx. 30 cm length enable to shorten the propeller shaft length, therefore, we guess that a shortened propeller shaft makes less shaking or vibrating during a long distance race such as Le Man.
We would like to know if this shorter propeller shaft with an aluminum bellhousing construction is used
on D series of sports-racing cars. Does anybody know if McCaw's D24(0005) has the same construction?
For reference, our Flaminia was impoted from Macao into Japan.
I realize engines installed in D series of sports-racing cars.
The engine on my friend's Flaminia is OHV that has only 1 camshaft between V banks. This should be
the same as a standard engine. No difference is found on it from a standard engine.
How about the propeller shaft? A standard Flaminia has propeller shafts separated in 2 pieces while our Flaminia has 1 piece propeller shaft shorter than a standard 2 piece one in over all length.
Also a fly wheel is located between the engine and the propeller shaft while a standard Flaminia has it between radiator and engine.
Also a casted aluminum made bellhousing surrounding the fly wheel is fitted between engine and propeller shaft. This bellhousing in approx. 30 cm length enable to shorten the propeller shaft length, therefore, we guess that a shortened propeller shaft makes less shaking or vibrating during a long distance race such as Le Man.
We would like to know if this shorter propeller shaft with an aluminum bellhousing construction is used
on D series of sports-racing cars. Does anybody know if McCaw's D24(0005) has the same construction?
For reference, our Flaminia was impoted from Macao into Japan.
-
P. de R. Leclercq
Re: Rare engine in the market?
Well as I said, I have only a limited amount of information.
You are incorrect concerning the flywheel position. No car ever had a flywheel at the "front" of the engine; you are perhaps thinking of the front pulley assembly? After all, how would the clutch be arranged in such a layout?
Someone might mention Porsche 911, but of course the engine was installed "backwards" - similarly old Renaults like the 4 and 12.
Regarding the prop-shaft, are you comparing different types of Flaminia? I think that the Supersport had a shorter wheelbase than the other Flaminia models; perhaps this accounts for the difference?
Paul
You are incorrect concerning the flywheel position. No car ever had a flywheel at the "front" of the engine; you are perhaps thinking of the front pulley assembly? After all, how would the clutch be arranged in such a layout?
Someone might mention Porsche 911, but of course the engine was installed "backwards" - similarly old Renaults like the 4 and 12.
Regarding the prop-shaft, are you comparing different types of Flaminia? I think that the Supersport had a shorter wheelbase than the other Flaminia models; perhaps this accounts for the difference?
Paul
-
donbay
Rare engine in the market?
Thanks again for your information.
For the flywheel, I should have said "balance weight" to easily continue the engine revolution.
The usual flywheel having a ring gear is located on the end of engine in standard Zagato model.
The balance weight is located between the pulley and the engine on standard Zagato while a machined
aluminum made balance weight is located in the center of flywheel in a casted aluminum bellhousing in
approx. 30 cm length.
A clutch is arranged on the trans-axle for all Flaminia model.
You mentioned that D series had four overhead camshafts, however, the following sites refer different
numbers.
http://www.gaffersports.com/motorsport/ ... s/2587.php
http://www.gaffersports.com/motorsport/ ... s/2588.php
http://www.gaffersports.com/motorsport/ ... s/2589.php
http://www.gaffersports.com/motorsport/ ... s/2590.php
http://www.gaffersports.com/motorsport/ ... s/2592.php
We know Supersport Flaminia has a shorter wheelbase. However, it is different construction on the propeller shaft part from our Flaminia. Our Flaminia has also a shorter wheelbase than standard Zagato.
We guess that a cylinder block is from D20 engine. If not, a casted aluminum bellhousing can not be
fixed the end of cylinder block. This bellhousing can not be fixed on the cylinder block of standard Zagato
because the standard cylinder block has no flange on it to fix a bellhousing.
Therefore, we guess that the cylinder block on our Flaminia is specially produced to fix a bellhousing.
We would like to know who made our Flaminia and what purpose.
For the flywheel, I should have said "balance weight" to easily continue the engine revolution.
The usual flywheel having a ring gear is located on the end of engine in standard Zagato model.
The balance weight is located between the pulley and the engine on standard Zagato while a machined
aluminum made balance weight is located in the center of flywheel in a casted aluminum bellhousing in
approx. 30 cm length.
A clutch is arranged on the trans-axle for all Flaminia model.
You mentioned that D series had four overhead camshafts, however, the following sites refer different
numbers.
http://www.gaffersports.com/motorsport/ ... s/2587.php
http://www.gaffersports.com/motorsport/ ... s/2588.php
http://www.gaffersports.com/motorsport/ ... s/2589.php
http://www.gaffersports.com/motorsport/ ... s/2590.php
http://www.gaffersports.com/motorsport/ ... s/2592.php
We know Supersport Flaminia has a shorter wheelbase. However, it is different construction on the propeller shaft part from our Flaminia. Our Flaminia has also a shorter wheelbase than standard Zagato.
We guess that a cylinder block is from D20 engine. If not, a casted aluminum bellhousing can not be
fixed the end of cylinder block. This bellhousing can not be fixed on the cylinder block of standard Zagato
because the standard cylinder block has no flange on it to fix a bellhousing.
Therefore, we guess that the cylinder block on our Flaminia is specially produced to fix a bellhousing.
We would like to know who made our Flaminia and what purpose.
-
P. de R. Leclercq
Re: Rare engine in the market?
I think that the reference to "2 camshafts" means DOHC. Unfortunatley I do not have my books here to confirm this, but someone reading this must have a copy of La Lancia or similar to confirm this.
By the was, the mention of a supercharger is a bit misleading; the supercharger was used I think only at Le Mans, where the car failed.
My memory is not what it once was!
Paul
By the was, the mention of a supercharger is a bit misleading; the supercharger was used I think only at Le Mans, where the car failed.
My memory is not what it once was!
Paul
-
donbay
Rare engine in the market?
Thanks Paul
I will shortly upload some photos on our Flaminia.
I will shortly upload some photos on our Flaminia.
-
Geoff Goldberg
Re: Rare engine in the market?
That would be best. None of the engine block on the racing cars was in iron - all were either alum or magnesium. I believe a D20 block was magnesium.
The crankshafts on Aurelias and Flaminias were made from billet steel, fully machined. I believe the later cars (Flavia and Fulvia) were forged and then machined.
Are you sure you don't have someone's "fix" to some propshaft issues? Do you still have "doughnuts" in the ends, for connection?
Geoff
The crankshafts on Aurelias and Flaminias were made from billet steel, fully machined. I believe the later cars (Flavia and Fulvia) were forged and then machined.
Are you sure you don't have someone's "fix" to some propshaft issues? Do you still have "doughnuts" in the ends, for connection?
Geoff
-
donbay
Rare engine in the market?
Thanks everyone for the reference.
Please refer to the following URL.
http://www.photocabi.net/donbay/
1. Bellhousing on the cylider block
An aluminum made bellhousing is directnly bolted on the end of Cylider block.
It's length is approx. 30 cm.
There is a flywheel with the ring gear in the bellhousing. The 2nd photo shows
the ring gear and the bellshousing bolted.
2. Bellhousing on the transmission
An aluminum made bellhousing is directly bolted on the front of transmission.
It's length is approx. 50 cm as seen on the 3rd photo. The difference is easily
found out in comparing with a standard transaxle, the 4th photo.
The clutch housing is also casted alumium made and completely different from a
standard one.
3. For a supercharger?
In the front of engine, there is a strange protruding part, 5th photo.
This protruding part is originally casted together with the cylider block.
Also, an aluminum plate plugs this protruding part with 2 bolts. May be, a gear shaft comes
out from the protruding part to directly rotate a supercharger.
If so, this cylider block is made for D22 engine that has a supercharger in LeMan 1953.
No protruding part is found on a standard Flaminia engine, 6th photo.
4. Weights fixed behind the pulley
A standard Flaminia engine has iron made weights behind the pulley as seen in the 8th photo.
However, our Flaminia does not. Instead of the front weights, a massive aluminum machined
weight is fixed in a flywheel center. It can not be seen on the photos because it is located
in the bellhousing.
5. Propeller shaft
As seen in the 9th photo, a very short pro.shaft is used. A standard Flaminia has 2 prop.shafts.
We guess that 1 prop.shaft is much better for a long distance race due to less vabration.
6. Front face and emblem
The front face of our Flaminia is slightly different from a standard Flaminia Zagato.
The Lancia emblem on the front grille is bigger than standard. A bigger Lancia embelem is
usually fixed for special made Zagato, not standard Zagato car. This bigger emblem
is made in 3 piece construction while a standard one is 2 pcs.
7. Air intake duct on the bonnet (NACA duct?)
The 12th photo shows a position of the airintake duct located backward. Compare it with
the 11th photo that is a standard Flaminia sport Zagato.
8. Side view
The 13th photo shows a side view of our Flaminia. The door is much narrower in height
than that of a standard one.
9. Reinforcement on the chassis
The 14th photo shows the reinforcements welding steel plates on the body in inside of
the rear wing.
10. Parking brake lever, 15th photo
The parking brake lever is completely differennt from a standard Zagato.
11. Funnels length
The funnels in a air cleaner are in different length. These funnels are shortend
a long with more slanty air intake duct.
We finally make a decision that our Flaminia sport Zagato is ordered by a motorsport enthusiast
and specially built by Zagato. If the cylinder block is the same as D20 engine, a supercharger
is fixed on the protruding part and it is very rare engine using some parts of D20 engine.
We also guess that an enthusiast had some parts of a surviving D20 engine, transaxle,
prop.shaft and others used on Lancia D20 in 1953 Le Man, then, asked Zagato to build
a special Flaminia sport using these surviving parts.
When my friend purchased this Zagato, he has heard that a Swiss enthusiast moved into Macau together with the car more than 20 years ago, then, kept the car in the best atomosphere condition in Macau.
He tried get register it in Macau, but, it was impossible due to the left hand drive.
So, an enthusiast had to sold his car. May be, this enthusiast might possibly pass away in Macau.
Therefore, my friend is actualy the 2nd owner.
We guess that nobody has sawn a real Lancia D20 race car, therefore, it might be very hard
to tell me detailed reference.
Any reference in our Flaminia Sport Zagato is very appreciated.
Please refer to the following URL.
http://www.photocabi.net/donbay/
1. Bellhousing on the cylider block
An aluminum made bellhousing is directnly bolted on the end of Cylider block.
It's length is approx. 30 cm.
There is a flywheel with the ring gear in the bellhousing. The 2nd photo shows
the ring gear and the bellshousing bolted.
2. Bellhousing on the transmission
An aluminum made bellhousing is directly bolted on the front of transmission.
It's length is approx. 50 cm as seen on the 3rd photo. The difference is easily
found out in comparing with a standard transaxle, the 4th photo.
The clutch housing is also casted alumium made and completely different from a
standard one.
3. For a supercharger?
In the front of engine, there is a strange protruding part, 5th photo.
This protruding part is originally casted together with the cylider block.
Also, an aluminum plate plugs this protruding part with 2 bolts. May be, a gear shaft comes
out from the protruding part to directly rotate a supercharger.
If so, this cylider block is made for D22 engine that has a supercharger in LeMan 1953.
No protruding part is found on a standard Flaminia engine, 6th photo.
4. Weights fixed behind the pulley
A standard Flaminia engine has iron made weights behind the pulley as seen in the 8th photo.
However, our Flaminia does not. Instead of the front weights, a massive aluminum machined
weight is fixed in a flywheel center. It can not be seen on the photos because it is located
in the bellhousing.
5. Propeller shaft
As seen in the 9th photo, a very short pro.shaft is used. A standard Flaminia has 2 prop.shafts.
We guess that 1 prop.shaft is much better for a long distance race due to less vabration.
6. Front face and emblem
The front face of our Flaminia is slightly different from a standard Flaminia Zagato.
The Lancia emblem on the front grille is bigger than standard. A bigger Lancia embelem is
usually fixed for special made Zagato, not standard Zagato car. This bigger emblem
is made in 3 piece construction while a standard one is 2 pcs.
7. Air intake duct on the bonnet (NACA duct?)
The 12th photo shows a position of the airintake duct located backward. Compare it with
the 11th photo that is a standard Flaminia sport Zagato.
8. Side view
The 13th photo shows a side view of our Flaminia. The door is much narrower in height
than that of a standard one.
9. Reinforcement on the chassis
The 14th photo shows the reinforcements welding steel plates on the body in inside of
the rear wing.
10. Parking brake lever, 15th photo
The parking brake lever is completely differennt from a standard Zagato.
11. Funnels length
The funnels in a air cleaner are in different length. These funnels are shortend
a long with more slanty air intake duct.
We finally make a decision that our Flaminia sport Zagato is ordered by a motorsport enthusiast
and specially built by Zagato. If the cylinder block is the same as D20 engine, a supercharger
is fixed on the protruding part and it is very rare engine using some parts of D20 engine.
We also guess that an enthusiast had some parts of a surviving D20 engine, transaxle,
prop.shaft and others used on Lancia D20 in 1953 Le Man, then, asked Zagato to build
a special Flaminia sport using these surviving parts.
When my friend purchased this Zagato, he has heard that a Swiss enthusiast moved into Macau together with the car more than 20 years ago, then, kept the car in the best atomosphere condition in Macau.
He tried get register it in Macau, but, it was impossible due to the left hand drive.
So, an enthusiast had to sold his car. May be, this enthusiast might possibly pass away in Macau.
Therefore, my friend is actualy the 2nd owner.
We guess that nobody has sawn a real Lancia D20 race car, therefore, it might be very hard
to tell me detailed reference.
Any reference in our Flaminia Sport Zagato is very appreciated.
-
Geoff Goldberg
Re: Rare engine in the market?
Well, it continues to be interesting. Yes, there are some interesting aspects to this - the clutch and bellhousing mods are curious, and worth examining in detail. Any numbers on any of them?
So too the body mods and handbrake are neat as well.
Please note that special mods and adjustments to the cars were not unusual at the time - the extent of these mods is pretty far off the norm, but not unheard of. For reference, check out the Flaminia Zagato special racing car, tested by Cahier in the early 1960's - I believe that Christoph Grohe once sold that car about 8 years ago, and may be able to help you with information. Also, he has had Pierre leGrand's other Flaminia Zagato race-prepped car, and that may give you some more understanding.
The propshaft is pretty neat - I suspect it came from some other aspect of the Flaminia line-up (possible Saxomat?) and the car was modified for it. Cory Youngberg in LA has a Flaminia with a Saxomat - perhaps yout can get some photos of the underneath of that from him (rear clutch housing) and see if there is any similarities to your car.
The references to the D20, at least to my mind, have no relevance. The early 1950's racers were a totally different animal. The blocks were totally different, Aurelia and Flaminia parts are NOT interchangeable (for the most part), and the superchargers were run from belts in the early years. A Flaminia block with a special casting aspect does not a D car make.
The body mods look quite nice. I hope you are pleased. They are again, outside the norm for the Zagato models, but not outside of people's experiences. Never be surprised at the variations available in small run production.
NIce car. Hope it does well for you.
Geoff
So too the body mods and handbrake are neat as well.
Please note that special mods and adjustments to the cars were not unusual at the time - the extent of these mods is pretty far off the norm, but not unheard of. For reference, check out the Flaminia Zagato special racing car, tested by Cahier in the early 1960's - I believe that Christoph Grohe once sold that car about 8 years ago, and may be able to help you with information. Also, he has had Pierre leGrand's other Flaminia Zagato race-prepped car, and that may give you some more understanding.
The propshaft is pretty neat - I suspect it came from some other aspect of the Flaminia line-up (possible Saxomat?) and the car was modified for it. Cory Youngberg in LA has a Flaminia with a Saxomat - perhaps yout can get some photos of the underneath of that from him (rear clutch housing) and see if there is any similarities to your car.
The references to the D20, at least to my mind, have no relevance. The early 1950's racers were a totally different animal. The blocks were totally different, Aurelia and Flaminia parts are NOT interchangeable (for the most part), and the superchargers were run from belts in the early years. A Flaminia block with a special casting aspect does not a D car make.
The body mods look quite nice. I hope you are pleased. They are again, outside the norm for the Zagato models, but not outside of people's experiences. Never be surprised at the variations available in small run production.
NIce car. Hope it does well for you.
Geoff