Hey guys, if you read the news what Fresco and Boschetti are saying, I
think it is all over.
By 2004-2005 Fiat cars will be part of GM. Lancia looks to be over after
the New Y.. and they are just going to sell the Thesis and Phedra to make
some return on their investment. I doubt they will replace any of these cars,
so Lancia is just being put to death... (WHERE I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY
COULDN'T OF JUST GIVEN IT TO SOME OTHER COMPANY).
I'm guessing that Fiat will hang on to Ferrari and Maserati, though it would
seem they would need the backing of a mass-producer to aid in the R&D
to continue these marques. Maybe they plan to somehow hang on to
Alfa Romeo as well?
It doesn't look good. Great work to the managers at Fiat for screwing up
not only Lancia, but the entire Italian automobile World. Now that is talent!
Lancia is dead
-
Huib
Or being born?
Is that good or bad for the value of my collection of Lancia's, Ryan?
Nevertheless, it would be very much a pity indeed if Lancia disappears.
With names like Ferrari, Maserati, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Fiat, Abarth it should be easy to conquer the world, even with one hand tied behind one's back. These names with the wealth behind them are formidable. There are thousands of man years of creativity, enthusiasm, and successes. Why did they not grow to balanced maturity and independence? Why do they now need the umbilical cord from mama GM? Why do they need a hand from a papa? Perhaps because the papa and the mama are too omnipresent in Italy? Perhaps because religion as the abstract form of the omnipotent father is too strong?
Going for anything less than the world does not work. Running away from the challenge of the LHD countries and the USA is symptomatic. If one is enthusiast and proud of his cars, one goes for the challenge. The reason given for withdrawing from those markets was financial. I classify money as a form. Underneath any form is content or feeling or lack of feeling. Underlying here is lack of confidence, fear of performing on this world, often a very bad motivator indeed.
Companies do not really exist. What does exist is a group of people, who work together. These people are the content, the body of the company. Their spontaneity forms the soul of the company. It is the motorino avviamento (starter motor) of anything that happens within the company. If the people leave, a piece of paper with ink remains. An abstract and empty form and as dead as the mummy of Tut Ank Amon. Ideally these people work together motivated by positive feelings and using concrete tools as screwdrivers, welding equipment, computers and abstract tools as laws, company rules, mathematics and money.
40.000 years ago our ancestor, the Cro Magnon man defeated Neanderthal man because of his superior use of tools. This is the general view today. Whether it is true or not, is not important. The fact we see it that way today is infinitely more important as it shows how our "brain circuits" and thus our body works today. Archaeologists can only dig up concrete tools. In my observation the ability to use abstract tools goes hand in hand with and is inseparable from the ability to use concrete tools. Abstract tools such as speech and social rules allowed our ancestors to function well as a group, optimise the use of concrete tools, beat the competition, conquer the world and provide for the needs of the people in the group. A few billion years of evolution have created the possibility for the human species to form tribes and kingdoms as a mature group with ideas, content and form in balance to have success. A few thousand years of evolution have added the possibility to form abstract tribes such as companies, do away with concrete weapons like axes, knives and guns and use seductive products and advertising instead.
What a wealth! Today anybody can go the Chamber of Commerce when it opens at 9 a.m., register his tribe or kingdom and start playing the game created by a billion years of evolution. People can join any tribe out of their own free will, based on their feelings. What a strength! The tribe does not have to kill anybody physically. It only has to do so in an abstract way by beating the competition and thus have the privilege of providing money as the abstract form of food and shelter for its tribesman. Balancing spontaneity, content and form or, if one wants to use different words, ideas, people and products / money is all that is required to build a successful, stable company, where people co-operate rather than sabotage each other.
The process to achieve this and anything else is anchored in our cells by our own development. We need a spine and its associated muscle system as a starter motor for movement, both concretely on earth as well as abstract. We need a torso with its content to feel and house all the chemical and physical processes and above all to bend or stretch, to be creative, to fight or to flee. We need limbs in the form of arms to give form by using tools, including money and legs to go to a target. How this process goes before conception I can only guess. After conception we can see it. A quick look just after conception leaves us in bewilderment. We can't yet see what it is going to be, there is no form nor content. We just notice a very high level of spontaneity, of creativity. Cells are dividing en forming new cells at a high rate. After that we see a spine developing, but still no form, no content. Not enough form to see whether it is going to be a human or a rabbit. No content to associate ourselves with and have feelings for. After 3 months or so arms and legs provide enough form to see it is going to be a human. Still no content. The last months before birth the belly and thus content develops. We can now associate with the foetus, have feeling for it. In fact abortion is now forbidden.
So far the new human has been hidden. We all know it is there, but it is yet invisible for the world.
Next comes birth. The new human becomes visible to the world, but it is not yet going anywhere nor able to do anything. It only has content. It has no form in the sense of useful arms and legs. We all love the baby because of its ample display of content, while it really looks hardly different from a skinned rabbit. After about 6 years, the legs and arms become useful tools and we go to school to learn giving form. At about 12 the spontaneity from the early weeks after conception comes back in the form of hormones and the integration and balancing process of spontaneity, content and form or in other words spine, torso and limbs starts.
After some years we hope to see a strong balanced human, with a strong and healthy body, strong legs to walk the world and strong arms to use tools. All parts perfectly co-operating and radiating confidence.
I use above template to place companies. As they are a collection of humans, they have to follow the same development process. Looking at Fiat here, we notice a.o.:
1. No firm legs to walk the world.
2. No firm arms to generate cash.
3. Very much dependent on the Italian home market. Not clearly visible all over the world, thus not entirely born.
4. Not a very consistent development and evolution of a range of models over the years. More the uncontrolled spontaneity, the everything is different show, like just after conception.
5. Decisions based on money, which is a form. Before birth form comes first, content later. It is never balanced. After birth content comes first and form later to be followed by a balancing of the two, which means maturity and stability..
6. Not able to generate its own blood (money) but instead depending on an umbilical cord.
All in all thus the picture of a foetus. At the moment a lot of confusion exists in Torino. The feeling of suffocating. Turmoil. Exactly the feelings we experience during birth. So, either a birth takes place followed by growth to maturity or regression into the womb of GM. I suppose it depends on papa Agnelli. Is he able to let his children grow into maturity or isn't he?
Nevertheless, it would be very much a pity indeed if Lancia disappears.
With names like Ferrari, Maserati, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Fiat, Abarth it should be easy to conquer the world, even with one hand tied behind one's back. These names with the wealth behind them are formidable. There are thousands of man years of creativity, enthusiasm, and successes. Why did they not grow to balanced maturity and independence? Why do they now need the umbilical cord from mama GM? Why do they need a hand from a papa? Perhaps because the papa and the mama are too omnipresent in Italy? Perhaps because religion as the abstract form of the omnipotent father is too strong?
Going for anything less than the world does not work. Running away from the challenge of the LHD countries and the USA is symptomatic. If one is enthusiast and proud of his cars, one goes for the challenge. The reason given for withdrawing from those markets was financial. I classify money as a form. Underneath any form is content or feeling or lack of feeling. Underlying here is lack of confidence, fear of performing on this world, often a very bad motivator indeed.
Companies do not really exist. What does exist is a group of people, who work together. These people are the content, the body of the company. Their spontaneity forms the soul of the company. It is the motorino avviamento (starter motor) of anything that happens within the company. If the people leave, a piece of paper with ink remains. An abstract and empty form and as dead as the mummy of Tut Ank Amon. Ideally these people work together motivated by positive feelings and using concrete tools as screwdrivers, welding equipment, computers and abstract tools as laws, company rules, mathematics and money.
40.000 years ago our ancestor, the Cro Magnon man defeated Neanderthal man because of his superior use of tools. This is the general view today. Whether it is true or not, is not important. The fact we see it that way today is infinitely more important as it shows how our "brain circuits" and thus our body works today. Archaeologists can only dig up concrete tools. In my observation the ability to use abstract tools goes hand in hand with and is inseparable from the ability to use concrete tools. Abstract tools such as speech and social rules allowed our ancestors to function well as a group, optimise the use of concrete tools, beat the competition, conquer the world and provide for the needs of the people in the group. A few billion years of evolution have created the possibility for the human species to form tribes and kingdoms as a mature group with ideas, content and form in balance to have success. A few thousand years of evolution have added the possibility to form abstract tribes such as companies, do away with concrete weapons like axes, knives and guns and use seductive products and advertising instead.
What a wealth! Today anybody can go the Chamber of Commerce when it opens at 9 a.m., register his tribe or kingdom and start playing the game created by a billion years of evolution. People can join any tribe out of their own free will, based on their feelings. What a strength! The tribe does not have to kill anybody physically. It only has to do so in an abstract way by beating the competition and thus have the privilege of providing money as the abstract form of food and shelter for its tribesman. Balancing spontaneity, content and form or, if one wants to use different words, ideas, people and products / money is all that is required to build a successful, stable company, where people co-operate rather than sabotage each other.
The process to achieve this and anything else is anchored in our cells by our own development. We need a spine and its associated muscle system as a starter motor for movement, both concretely on earth as well as abstract. We need a torso with its content to feel and house all the chemical and physical processes and above all to bend or stretch, to be creative, to fight or to flee. We need limbs in the form of arms to give form by using tools, including money and legs to go to a target. How this process goes before conception I can only guess. After conception we can see it. A quick look just after conception leaves us in bewilderment. We can't yet see what it is going to be, there is no form nor content. We just notice a very high level of spontaneity, of creativity. Cells are dividing en forming new cells at a high rate. After that we see a spine developing, but still no form, no content. Not enough form to see whether it is going to be a human or a rabbit. No content to associate ourselves with and have feelings for. After 3 months or so arms and legs provide enough form to see it is going to be a human. Still no content. The last months before birth the belly and thus content develops. We can now associate with the foetus, have feeling for it. In fact abortion is now forbidden.
So far the new human has been hidden. We all know it is there, but it is yet invisible for the world.
Next comes birth. The new human becomes visible to the world, but it is not yet going anywhere nor able to do anything. It only has content. It has no form in the sense of useful arms and legs. We all love the baby because of its ample display of content, while it really looks hardly different from a skinned rabbit. After about 6 years, the legs and arms become useful tools and we go to school to learn giving form. At about 12 the spontaneity from the early weeks after conception comes back in the form of hormones and the integration and balancing process of spontaneity, content and form or in other words spine, torso and limbs starts.
After some years we hope to see a strong balanced human, with a strong and healthy body, strong legs to walk the world and strong arms to use tools. All parts perfectly co-operating and radiating confidence.
I use above template to place companies. As they are a collection of humans, they have to follow the same development process. Looking at Fiat here, we notice a.o.:
1. No firm legs to walk the world.
2. No firm arms to generate cash.
3. Very much dependent on the Italian home market. Not clearly visible all over the world, thus not entirely born.
4. Not a very consistent development and evolution of a range of models over the years. More the uncontrolled spontaneity, the everything is different show, like just after conception.
5. Decisions based on money, which is a form. Before birth form comes first, content later. It is never balanced. After birth content comes first and form later to be followed by a balancing of the two, which means maturity and stability..
6. Not able to generate its own blood (money) but instead depending on an umbilical cord.
All in all thus the picture of a foetus. At the moment a lot of confusion exists in Torino. The feeling of suffocating. Turmoil. Exactly the feelings we experience during birth. So, either a birth takes place followed by growth to maturity or regression into the womb of GM. I suppose it depends on papa Agnelli. Is he able to let his children grow into maturity or isn't he?
-
Ryan
Re: Or being born?
Let me reply in more depth later.
But I agree with what you say in the beginning. Fiat Group has Ferrari,
Maserati, Alfa Romeo, LANCIA, Fiat, Abarth, and also holds the rights
to Innocenti, Autobianchi, etc.
They have the monopoly on the "Italian Car" except for Lamborghini,
De Tomaso, and Pagani.
This should be worth Billions of USD. The Germans have to fight amongst
themselves, Fiat holds the treasure chest. Think around the World from
Japan to the United States the love for the bella macchina Italiana.. and
these managers have destroyed this.
They do shame to the Italian creativity... and I wish they would just hand
over the company to Italians (or fans of Italian cars) who want to do the
work. Look at the momentum at motorcycle compaines such as Ducati,
Aprilia, Benelli, etc. etc.. we need this enthusiasm at Fiat.. you see it in
sparks when the creation of the 360 Modena or Alfa 156 is born.. but it
must be across the board.
These brands could easly take 5-10% of the World market...
For shame to these individuals for degrading the Italian auto history.
I don't want to blame the Italian culture though, I want to blame the PEOPLE
at Fiat who are to blame for what they have done.
But I agree with what you say in the beginning. Fiat Group has Ferrari,
Maserati, Alfa Romeo, LANCIA, Fiat, Abarth, and also holds the rights
to Innocenti, Autobianchi, etc.
They have the monopoly on the "Italian Car" except for Lamborghini,
De Tomaso, and Pagani.
This should be worth Billions of USD. The Germans have to fight amongst
themselves, Fiat holds the treasure chest. Think around the World from
Japan to the United States the love for the bella macchina Italiana.. and
these managers have destroyed this.
They do shame to the Italian creativity... and I wish they would just hand
over the company to Italians (or fans of Italian cars) who want to do the
work. Look at the momentum at motorcycle compaines such as Ducati,
Aprilia, Benelli, etc. etc.. we need this enthusiasm at Fiat.. you see it in
sparks when the creation of the 360 Modena or Alfa 156 is born.. but it
must be across the board.
These brands could easly take 5-10% of the World market...
For shame to these individuals for degrading the Italian auto history.
I don't want to blame the Italian culture though, I want to blame the PEOPLE
at Fiat who are to blame for what they have done.
-
Ryan
one wish
I wish these people at Fiat would come to your brilliant website Huib,
and read what the people who have passion for their cars have to say.
It seems the passion for the cars now live in us, rather than the ones
who work at the company. IT USED TO BE MUTUAL FROM WHAT
I CAN TELL...
bah...
and read what the people who have passion for their cars have to say.
It seems the passion for the cars now live in us, rather than the ones
who work at the company. IT USED TO BE MUTUAL FROM WHAT
I CAN TELL...
bah...
-
Huib Geurink
Culture
I certainly do not want to blame the Italian culture, Ryan! The culture of Italy is what it is and I love the country and its people. It is the same culture that created the most fantastic automobiles (and wine and food and many other things). Exactly as the engineers exceeded boundaries to create these miracles, the managers have to exceed boundaries to be succesful businesswise on a world scale. Most Italians I know would do a better job in crossing borders than the managers at FIAT, who hardly dared leave their own back garden instead of pushing frontiers.
I am trying to get to a diagnosis rather than a judgement by trying to identify the limitations. Naming the problem is more than halfway solving it.
I am trying to get to a diagnosis rather than a judgement by trying to identify the limitations. Naming the problem is more than halfway solving it.
-
Huib Geurink
visit the site?
It is likely they visit the website, but hide behind masquerading as god. Fortunately the site is built by, visited by and contributed to by people.
It is also likely, perhaps even more so, they don't know how the internet works and don't visit the site.
It is also likely, perhaps even more so, they don't know how the internet works and don't visit the site.
-
Huib Geurink
Passion
As I said, the lack of content and spirit on a broad and balanced scale is serious in the company.
Reminds me of an old joke.
Do you know what the difference is between Italians and Germans?
A German says: the situation is serious, but not hopeless.
An Italian says: the situation is hopeless, but not serious.
No offense meant to anybody! These differences are what makes the world beautiful instead of turning it into a grey prison. I love them both for it and I am happy to drink a glass of beer or a glass of wine (whatever applies) with any of them.
Reminds me of an old joke.
Do you know what the difference is between Italians and Germans?
A German says: the situation is serious, but not hopeless.
An Italian says: the situation is hopeless, but not serious.
No offense meant to anybody! These differences are what makes the world beautiful instead of turning it into a grey prison. I love them both for it and I am happy to drink a glass of beer or a glass of wine (whatever applies) with any of them.
-
Ryan
Re: Culture
Huib, yes, no worries, I know you were not making any directive towards the
culture. Its more the general case of people associating one person from
a countries decision to the entire population.
Anyway, I wish we could figure out the problem of Fiat.. you'd think these
'professionals' could do something on their own as well. Its a complete
shame...
culture. Its more the general case of people associating one person from
a countries decision to the entire population.
Anyway, I wish we could figure out the problem of Fiat.. you'd think these
'professionals' could do something on their own as well. Its a complete
shame...
-
Ryan
Re: visit the site?
If they are so arrogant, they should really come down from their ladder, because
me personally as a enthusiast for the automobile design, and not impressed with
the disaster which they as a group of people have succeeded in accomplishing.
Its fine to be proud of something like the "147", but popping out one or two
magnificent cars in half a decade is not enough. Plus, I hear that even though
the quality is much improved, these Alfas made in Southern Italy are still not
up with some other companies.
There is no excuse. Do your best, don't follow, or just get out...
This is the human spirit...
me personally as a enthusiast for the automobile design, and not impressed with
the disaster which they as a group of people have succeeded in accomplishing.
Its fine to be proud of something like the "147", but popping out one or two
magnificent cars in half a decade is not enough. Plus, I hear that even though
the quality is much improved, these Alfas made in Southern Italy are still not
up with some other companies.
There is no excuse. Do your best, don't follow, or just get out...
This is the human spirit...