Interesting contribution, James. I agree that the 1970s safety and smog laws were surreptitious protectionism. My first pur-sang Lancia was a 1968 Fulvia Sport 1.3 that a woman brought with her from the U.K. when she emigrated here. I could not register it to save my soul so I threw the license plate from my 1962 Flaminia GT on it and drove it happily for five years until some unknown person smashed its windshield. My thought was that the CHP or local police officer who could say "hey! that's not a 1962 Lancia!" was somebody I'd like to meet anyway and I wouldn't ever get a citation.
Your story of the windshield crack in the 77 Beta coupe is an interesting. I'd never heard of that problem but maybe our milder climate prevented that. To add to my earlier summary of the problems of the original Betas, in addition to being desperately underpowered they also totally guzzled the gas. My 1976 coupe would only manage about 14 miles to the gallon around town. This with a car that only developed 87 bhp! And during the big 1970s gasoline crisis period. Those early cars simply were not properly developed for the U.S. market.
I cannot speak for other states, but in California you can insure any legally registered car with ordinary insurance if you want to. The insurers are required to do so. But standard insurance will always be vastly more expensive than classic insurance because there are no mileage limitations and the underwriting will not have been adjusted to account for the much greater level of care of classic car drivers. But it will not be any more expensive than it is for a normal car.
Last Lancias sold in USA?
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justin
Re: Last Lancias sold in USA?
Fascinating can of worms I seem to have opened !
I'm so sorry that the US isn't as "cavalier" in automotive concerns as both Paul and I had believed.
I think we've been under the allusion that due to the crazy developments we've seen in movies and in the stock car 'trade', and on Men and Motors(!), it was ok to stuff a huge hemi into a VW combi, and paint flowers on it ! Perhaps that's just 'TV motorsport'.
So - you chaps in general really don't have any idea how good it is to drive a Fulvia with modified engine, suspension and exhaust, and show the works how they should have done it in 1970 !
What is the world coming to when you can develop the most sophisticated gattling guns that will dissolve a factory from 2 miles up (and sound wonderful), but you can't drive a Fulvia with a straight-through exhaust ?!
Roll back the 20th century with a few corrections !
J.
PS. James, there was something very wrong with your Beta at 14mpg; even with US emissions mods, they weren't that bad, I'm sure.
I'm so sorry that the US isn't as "cavalier" in automotive concerns as both Paul and I had believed.
I think we've been under the allusion that due to the crazy developments we've seen in movies and in the stock car 'trade', and on Men and Motors(!), it was ok to stuff a huge hemi into a VW combi, and paint flowers on it ! Perhaps that's just 'TV motorsport'.
So - you chaps in general really don't have any idea how good it is to drive a Fulvia with modified engine, suspension and exhaust, and show the works how they should have done it in 1970 !
What is the world coming to when you can develop the most sophisticated gattling guns that will dissolve a factory from 2 miles up (and sound wonderful), but you can't drive a Fulvia with a straight-through exhaust ?!
Roll back the 20th century with a few corrections !
J.
PS. James, there was something very wrong with your Beta at 14mpg; even with US emissions mods, they weren't that bad, I'm sure.
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Philip
Re: Last Lancias sold in USA?
you're unfortunately unlikely to be seeing Lancia branded cars being sold in the USA for some years to come, if ever, but you might get Alfa Romeo before the end of next year if one is to believe reports...(last read in www.italiaspeed.com today)
we in Europe who can buy Lancia are extremely frustrated by Fiat Auto's model policy as all one can one buy are minivans or the Ypsilon...apart from the lovely Thesis which is beyond most people's aspirations - besides, they are hardly promoting it!
greetings from Geneva, Switzerland - p.s. any readers coming to the auto show here this week?
we in Europe who can buy Lancia are extremely frustrated by Fiat Auto's model policy as all one can one buy are minivans or the Ypsilon...apart from the lovely Thesis which is beyond most people's aspirations - besides, they are hardly promoting it!
greetings from Geneva, Switzerland - p.s. any readers coming to the auto show here this week?
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Randy Adams
Re: Last Lancias sold in USA?
Hi, Justin, it was my car that did 14 miles per gallon in town.
Yes, it most certainly did. Los Angeles traffic is very bad, so that is a factor. It would manage a perfectly acceptable 27 miles per gallon on the freeway, but around town only 14. Bear in mind I am talking about U.S. gallons which are smaller than the old Imperial gallon.
The pollution control equipment on the carbureted models was horrific. I cannot overstate how bad a system is that takes an engine down from 118 bhp to 87. To exacerbate matters, the U.S. market cars came with heavy bumpers front and rear and were loaded with every option such as A/C, sunroof, electric windows, P/S, so the cars were heavy. The dreadful gas mileage was inevitable.
I owned the 1976 coupe for three years. I ditched it for the rusty rhd 1968 Fulvia Sport 1.3 and enjoyed automotive nirvana for five years. Even with a 4 speed, the Fulvia was enormously faster and also more economical than the Beta. And a total joy to work on.
Yes, it most certainly did. Los Angeles traffic is very bad, so that is a factor. It would manage a perfectly acceptable 27 miles per gallon on the freeway, but around town only 14. Bear in mind I am talking about U.S. gallons which are smaller than the old Imperial gallon.
The pollution control equipment on the carbureted models was horrific. I cannot overstate how bad a system is that takes an engine down from 118 bhp to 87. To exacerbate matters, the U.S. market cars came with heavy bumpers front and rear and were loaded with every option such as A/C, sunroof, electric windows, P/S, so the cars were heavy. The dreadful gas mileage was inevitable.
I owned the 1976 coupe for three years. I ditched it for the rusty rhd 1968 Fulvia Sport 1.3 and enjoyed automotive nirvana for five years. Even with a 4 speed, the Fulvia was enormously faster and also more economical than the Beta. And a total joy to work on.
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Geoff Goldberg
Re: Last Lancias sold in USA?
James' summary on the legal issues is very accurate. There were however a few loopholes that existed, and a few things snuck through the cracks. I brought a 1972 Flavia Milleotto down from Canada c. 1978, drove it across the border and proceeded to give it a Massachusett's title, got insurance and drove it for a while.
Then there were those who brought in "race cars" and then subsequently locally titled them in their state of choice. While Washington was adament, the reality is that amongst 50 states and the various ways to get titles, not everyone was paying attention to those cars whose names started with "L". Ferrari, Porsche, yes, but not all the other ones.
I once knew a "federalizer" in LA who legalized some Stratos and mostly Lamborghinis for a living. He had a whole shop dedicated to the EPA and DOT concerns. For some time, you could meet those requirements without the crash tests, but it took engineering and fabrication. Of course, he had a heck of time with the Countach because the bumper height could never match the standard. But as necessity is the mother of invention, he had made up some 90% yard sticks, so when the folks came to measure the height, it was just fine!
Lastly, regarding insurance, those of us who do not live on the coasts have an easier time. Massachusetts, NY and California are more difficult, but here in Illinois, I insure all my Lancias (Aurelias, Appias) with straight insurance, and have no problems. Also, here, insurance and titling are independent (these are governed by each state's practices, not the Feds), so you can title a car without insurance. You just should not drive it.
Geoff
Then there were those who brought in "race cars" and then subsequently locally titled them in their state of choice. While Washington was adament, the reality is that amongst 50 states and the various ways to get titles, not everyone was paying attention to those cars whose names started with "L". Ferrari, Porsche, yes, but not all the other ones.
I once knew a "federalizer" in LA who legalized some Stratos and mostly Lamborghinis for a living. He had a whole shop dedicated to the EPA and DOT concerns. For some time, you could meet those requirements without the crash tests, but it took engineering and fabrication. Of course, he had a heck of time with the Countach because the bumper height could never match the standard. But as necessity is the mother of invention, he had made up some 90% yard sticks, so when the folks came to measure the height, it was just fine!
Lastly, regarding insurance, those of us who do not live on the coasts have an easier time. Massachusetts, NY and California are more difficult, but here in Illinois, I insure all my Lancias (Aurelias, Appias) with straight insurance, and have no problems. Also, here, insurance and titling are independent (these are governed by each state's practices, not the Feds), so you can title a car without insurance. You just should not drive it.
Geoff
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ryan
but in California...
isn't the case that the car -necessarily- had to be sold in the US, even if its 25+ years old?
the Federal DOT/EPA seem to exempt cars that are 25+ years old, but I've heard already
from MINI people around here that they can only register certain years of MINIs in the 60's
that were officially imported (61-63, i think), but a 64, 65, etc.. are not allowed.
if this is the case, then the only way to bring a 1980 car into California would be to register
it in another state, which is not quite kosher..
its driving me nuts to see 1990 cars starting to show up in Canada. someone has a
Delta Integrale.. i've seen Ritmo 130TC Abarths for sale as well. *sob*
-ryan
the Federal DOT/EPA seem to exempt cars that are 25+ years old, but I've heard already
from MINI people around here that they can only register certain years of MINIs in the 60's
that were officially imported (61-63, i think), but a 64, 65, etc.. are not allowed.
if this is the case, then the only way to bring a 1980 car into California would be to register
it in another state, which is not quite kosher..
its driving me nuts to see 1990 cars starting to show up in Canada. someone has a
Delta Integrale.. i've seen Ritmo 130TC Abarths for sale as well. *sob*
-ryan
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justin
Re: Last Lancias sold in USA?
Hi Randy
Sorry I confused the title to the "gas guzzler", and am glad to hear you're a Fulvia man.
They are the nicest cars, dare I say "Lancias", to drive and to work on, that I've ever had the pleasure of owning/playing with.
There's nothing good about modern 'black box' engineering when it's dark and wet and the car stops- a Fulvia, however, will always get you home with the least ingenuity and parts of your girlfriend's underwear !
Sorry I confused the title to the "gas guzzler", and am glad to hear you're a Fulvia man.
They are the nicest cars, dare I say "Lancias", to drive and to work on, that I've ever had the pleasure of owning/playing with.
There's nothing good about modern 'black box' engineering when it's dark and wet and the car stops- a Fulvia, however, will always get you home with the least ingenuity and parts of your girlfriend's underwear !
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Shaun
Re: Last Lancias sold in USA?
Justin,
I had to post to second your nomination of the Fulvia as one of the "nicest cars" - full stop.
I've had my 1967 Coupe Rally 1.3 since last June. It's straightforward to work on, its design and engineering -in both big and small things- is a joy to behold, and it's the most balanced and nimble thing on four wheels I've ever driven. It's hard to stop grinning when you're driving one.
We live in the San Francisco area and, as well as serving as my everyday car, we've been enjoying it in local pre-75 classic car events. Snaps from some of these outings are at: www.fulviacam.phanfare.com.
I'd love to sample some other Lancias (e.g. an Integrale) but, for reasons covered in this thread, my chances in this regard are pretty slim. So I'm just going to have to hang on to my Fulvia.
Regards - Shaun Pond
I had to post to second your nomination of the Fulvia as one of the "nicest cars" - full stop.
I've had my 1967 Coupe Rally 1.3 since last June. It's straightforward to work on, its design and engineering -in both big and small things- is a joy to behold, and it's the most balanced and nimble thing on four wheels I've ever driven. It's hard to stop grinning when you're driving one.
We live in the San Francisco area and, as well as serving as my everyday car, we've been enjoying it in local pre-75 classic car events. Snaps from some of these outings are at: www.fulviacam.phanfare.com.
I'd love to sample some other Lancias (e.g. an Integrale) but, for reasons covered in this thread, my chances in this regard are pretty slim. So I'm just going to have to hang on to my Fulvia.
Regards - Shaun Pond
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justin
Re: Last Lancias sold in USA?
Shaun
Your words are a relief in countering my earlier observation!
So you do get the chance to drive these special cars, and clearly recognise their qualities - may that ever be the case!
I've had 2 later Lancias - the Thema 8v Turbo Estate (or station wagon), and the current Kappa 20v Turbo Estate, which I use on a daily basis.
Both of these are fairly true to the Lancia tradition, though developed by Fiat on their parts, and are driver's cars - classy, fast and wieldy, but neither producing the grinning joy of the Fulvia.
regds,
Justin
Your words are a relief in countering my earlier observation!
So you do get the chance to drive these special cars, and clearly recognise their qualities - may that ever be the case!
I've had 2 later Lancias - the Thema 8v Turbo Estate (or station wagon), and the current Kappa 20v Turbo Estate, which I use on a daily basis.
Both of these are fairly true to the Lancia tradition, though developed by Fiat on their parts, and are driver's cars - classy, fast and wieldy, but neither producing the grinning joy of the Fulvia.
regds,
Justin