BBC 2 Top Gear 29th November

[Philip]

your comments about rust do not meet my experience with Thema Station Wagon I drove from 1990 to 2000 and which had not one spec of rust on it or under it after 235,000km; my current Lybra, bought new in 2000 and now has nearly 220,000km on it is also still like new in terms of bodywork...my Prisma, bought in 1984 and kept till 1990 did indeed have some rust issues but they were limited to one door and inside the boot rim which I solved by treating it with rust protection...Our 2000 Punto is also quite spotless after 10 years...

[giorgio Cazzato]

sorry for my bad english, with the Budget of TOP-GEAR they had to find at lifst real original cars and not Replica!!!!!

[Huib]

Don't you think there was a clear message in the fact that they used a replica? As you say with their budget they could have done anything else.

[Huib]

The Thema's were not that bad. I am sure Lancia did something to prevent rust. They just did not go all the way, neither technically nor Quality Assurance wise. None of the cars should have had any rust after the late seventies.

And there are also the technical problems. I know quite a few people who would have preferred a Lancia or Alfa Romeo to the BMW or Volvo company car they drive now. It is refused simply because the lease cost is too high because of high repair costs and high depreciation. All related to (the perception of ) the quality.

[Huib]

I had my daughter and son in law over for dinner last night. They both had watched the program and have the same view as I have with one important difference. They only mentioned the lack of respect of the board for the people who work at Lancia. They are quite right. They are ahead of me in this 21st century. It starts from within. I am proud of them.

[gamma a.i.]

I've been told by car owners in Switzerland that it has been a standard-procedure for new cars to be "rust- prevention" treated with kgs of wax & grease in every nook & cranny where water or helpscream salty water would sit & settle, unknown & unseen, until it was to late to do much about it.

I know Lance rusted trbly, but what cars didn't rust terribly in the 60's, 70's? Even Corvette frames rusted; but they were well hidden behind plastic.

I saw, with my own eyes, early AlfaSud arriving at german dealships already rusted. GammaEric of NL told me he saw Suds, as a kid, rusty before they were hand-rolled into the AlfaSud paint shop. Great Steel.

I can't remember which E. Euro countries the cars came from, nor the "brand-name" of the cars, but I remember seeing a particular brand of "already rusting" uglylittlebrandnewcars being displayed at International Auto-Shows; in the early 80's....with poordejectedcrying Stand-Persons sloppily spray-painting over the rust, just before the show opened. Overspraying glassrubberchrome, with no thinner or rags to wipe it off; hanging hand-scribbled signs on the side windows ... "please don't touch", 1 day prior to "Press-Day" &, after press-day receiving assistance from a # of fine-exhibitors from other booths----polishing / cleaning, vacuuming these cars before the shows avtually opened. I also remember these exhibitors asking others "can you help us make some signs for our booth; we don't have a budget for advertising & the real sign-makers want money".
I didn't say "you don't have a budget to build car either do you"; not wanting to start an international-incident.
Their presence was already an "incident"; lucky them....they were toally ignored, by everyone, at these shows


Not to mention 1,000's of Dtsn 240Z that arrived in USA with huge water-filled paint -blisters under the paint, as they were rolling off ships in USA*. No, they were not "on-deck" cars; they were in-hold stored cars.
They, of course got a "slap-dash 9,95 paint overblow" at shops specifically set up at port-cities just to "handle shipping damage". They were in long lines, sorry, but true along with pre-rusted BMW 02's; NSU TT's, salty (inside & outside) *Fiat 124 Spiders & even *Porsche 911's.

* Cars shipped on different ships. Both ships were partially sunk, but rescued in time to prevent total loss.
It was claimed, by the shippers & manufacturers...that the cars were partially-below salt-water on a partially sunken ship, but only for several-hours".. The disabled ships were towed back in to port & partially unloaded, the cars on the lowest deck were partially under water for several days, if not weeks.

The cars went to the USA anyway...after being "hosed out, hosed down & dried out ... sitting in big warehouses in the port cities. They were "blow-over-painted" & sent off to USA dealers for sale. No one told the dealers nor eventual buyers of the cars history.....
I was told, back-then, by a # of honest-upstanding-car-IMPORT-people "if they rust during the warrantee period....in salt- free climates...we will repair them; everywhere else we will blame it on "highway-salt" & assume 50% of the repair-cost (which we do with a 300% margin...in our own shops) , or take them in trade ... at a far lower prices ... then blow-them over again & resell them at auctions..
Some of them will be around for years !

Fiat QUIETLY departed the USA market, these same "honest-upstanding-car-people" purchased poorly built Ital cars directly from Pinin, Bertone, Lancia with absolutely no factory warrantees & with zero rust-protection.

I could stay here all day, telling more-"true-horror-stories" ... about English cars; made in Scotland cars, made in USA cars, more made in Japan cars.......but you already know the end-results, cars from everywhere*** that were ....."designed to rust & fall apart" in order to keep the economies going.

Sorry; ***Sweden excepted !!!

[Huib]

It is besides the point John. I know the stories.

Most other car manufacturers said they would solve the problem and they did.
Lancia said they would solve the problem but did not. They only used their mouth, not their hands.

I have not inspected every car in the world. I was only putting into words the general feeling that still floats around in this world by using examples of my own and which was also visualised by Top Gear. You and the Lancia top can either read the Top Gear message or try to talk their way out. I don't care. Talking is hardly effective to establish a reputation of good quality.


Some words from Top Gear
The window does not work. (said the employee)
Sell it anyway! (said the boss)

Lancia does simply not have the reputation that BMW, Mercedes, Volvo and some others have. Whether it is justified or not does not even matter. It is the perception of the public. That is not your doing. It is not my doing. It is not Top Gears doing. There is only one guy responsible.

Top Gear has basically a good feeling about Lancia. They put it at the top of the list! They did not do so to make a joke of the company. They have better things to do. They like to drive Lancia's. They made that 100% clear. They left no doubt about that. They spent a lot of energy to present a message to help Lancia. After all they used a replica not a Lancia to wander off track. Even then they helped it to get back on track. What more do you want? They repeatedly complimented the beauty of the car but also made perfectly clear it takes more than that.

[gamma a.i.]

H,

You are right on the money. From A to Z, excepting when it came to manufacturers / importers (to USA) making / keeping promises. They never kept their word ! Even the USA manufacturers; Chrysler, Ford, GM...& look where they ended-up " Alienating an entire nation by offering "no-value for a lot of money".
End of Sermon.
I must, 'owever, agree with Phil about quality of more recent Lancia/Fiat.
My Kappa SW was a dream; it was my fault I didn't buy a D to begin with...so I sold it !
My Lybra was (a lot slower, but I opted for small price/small motor) too small for my long term needs, but it was a SW & a D & was everying it should have been & caused no problems whatever; for ca 150,000km..
Our little "family-car" - a Lan-Y "A" is now 12 yrs old & is like new, after 80²km ... and...if ever replaced .. to be replaced by an electric-car. I hope a Lancia ... or at least a Fiat !!
My small HP Stilo is fine; but it is a "summer only car" & will...I hope...be with me ...shiny & bright...for many yrs.

[Huib]

About the other companies you mention I care even less. Aren't those the companies that would have gone down the drain if not massively helped by governments?

BTW, I added some lines to my previous posting.

[gamma a.i.]

this isn't a reply to any post of today:

When TG "breaks down" on the side of road, overheats, leaks oil, loses pieces of cars....no matter what car
"it is all part of the show & good for a laugh".
They really didn't wish to insult the (Beta) built quality ? or did they why ?

I wonder what they would say about the X1/9