Shaun, I have to be honest here. I do not care about having less brakes when they are cold. Just start to brake harder and they warm up. BUT: if freeway driving is as highway driving here (not touching brakes for 10minutes), you would be surprised by the shock you will get. Little braking at front. I would just go for greenstuff. They are easy to obtain. And try to beat those when going down hill. Then it is time for an upgrade.
Also I agree with Huib that competition pads (higher carbon content??) are more agressive for the discs. I need to change every 6000km. But the green ones should be kind....
California Melee X
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P. de R. Leclercq
Re: brake fade
Well to be honest, my Fulvia is actually not in use at present, but yes I did use the Yellow Stuff for daily driving, in London.
Admittedly my car is very non-standard, with enormous (310mm x 28mm) ventilated discs at the front and FIAT 20V coupé calipers. The pads are Evo ones, so obviously these would take even longer to warm up that normal Fulvia calipers and my car is probably a bit lighter than a standard one. Nevertheless, I always had good brakes, albeit a bit "dead" when old, but they soon warm up, even though I am not a fierce braker.
However, part of the deveopment on the rally Fanalone that I have been involved with for some years included fitting S2 front calipers. The owner has tried green, red and yellow stuff pads. Only yellow will do! Of course I have driven the car many times on the road and have found the brakes to be first class.
Paul
Admittedly my car is very non-standard, with enormous (310mm x 28mm) ventilated discs at the front and FIAT 20V coupé calipers. The pads are Evo ones, so obviously these would take even longer to warm up that normal Fulvia calipers and my car is probably a bit lighter than a standard one. Nevertheless, I always had good brakes, albeit a bit "dead" when old, but they soon warm up, even though I am not a fierce braker.
However, part of the deveopment on the rally Fanalone that I have been involved with for some years included fitting S2 front calipers. The owner has tried green, red and yellow stuff pads. Only yellow will do! Of course I have driven the car many times on the road and have found the brakes to be first class.
Paul
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P. de R. Leclercq
Re: brake fade
Thomas,
I think that this is a most intelligent post: it echoes the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"!
It is absolutely true to say that if what you have works, then carry on!
Well said
Paul
I think that this is a most intelligent post: it echoes the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"!
It is absolutely true to say that if what you have works, then carry on!
Well said
Paul
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shaun pond
Re: brake fade
Thomas, thanks. A good point.
My Fulvia's just been through a full brake job, including rebuilt master cylinder, rebuilt calipers and new pads. As you say, the performance is quite adequate for a casual driver.
I've just gotten a bit curious about ways to enhance the braking performance, inspired by the fun I had during the California Melee.
It's good to know that you don't find the stainless braided lines to be a major improvement. I've always liked how they look, but been a little skeptical about the performance claims made for them.
As usual, this forum has been a great way of learning what other Fulvia owners have experienced!
Thanks again.
My Fulvia's just been through a full brake job, including rebuilt master cylinder, rebuilt calipers and new pads. As you say, the performance is quite adequate for a casual driver.
I've just gotten a bit curious about ways to enhance the braking performance, inspired by the fun I had during the California Melee.
It's good to know that you don't find the stainless braided lines to be a major improvement. I've always liked how they look, but been a little skeptical about the performance claims made for them.
As usual, this forum has been a great way of learning what other Fulvia owners have experienced!
Thanks again.
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Thomas
Re: brake fade
OK Shaun; about the braided lines, I guess it all depends on the state of the rubber ones you're replacing. As said I felt little difference on my Fulvia; on an Alfetta GTV I used to have they did not improve the (really lousy) braking that much either, so certainly not a miracle solution.
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Huib
Re: brake fade
I was thinking along the same lines, Thomas, but as you said I would not want to set up the proceeding of the thread.
I bought my first Lancia in 67 or 68. This was a souped up Flavia coupe iniezione with of course Dunlop brakes. There were no speed limits at that time and also I was a whole lot younger, pedal to the metal all the time. My wife (girlfriend at the time) had a Flaminia Touring convertible to drive to work. I often used it to outrun the Porsches of the highway police. It was also used on the track often by myself and more experienced race drivers, who drove it even faster. In 1970 a bought a Fulvia berlina with Dunlop brakes. Still no speed limits, I drove it fast on the track and through almost every mountain range in Europe. Always with good quality standard pads. I have never had a fading problem.
In 1996 I changed back to the old Lancia's. Mostly Fulvia's but also Flaminia and Flavia. The Flaminia and Fulvia's were also rallied. No brake problems except with the Flaminia when I just got it which triggered me in doing a lot of research in getting the Dunlop brakes all right. Apart from that, never a problem.
I also use a Fulvia for daily driving. Before 2000 I alternated cars, but found that too expensive. I now use a single Fulvia which does about 40.000 km per year. This is a 1967 coupe rallye 1.3, my favourite. Most of the time the car is driven normally, not raced nor rallied as I find driving very fast to be too expensive and it takes too long to get to the destination (requiring various rests on say a 1200 km trip). Driving just below very fast is a whole lot cheaper and gets me much quicker to where I want to go as I only have to stop a few minutes at the petrol station.
Also the car has to be ready all the time. My wife and I agree that the only countries on this world were it is possible to get a decent meal at a decent price are France and Italy and possibly Thailand, but that is just too far. So any time we decide to drive 700 or 1200 km's (one way) for a meal, the Fulvia has to be able to do it as I simply refuse to drive any car other than Fulvia, Flavia or Flaminia. Turn the key and go.
The mechanical forces on the car, its parts and the rubbers are enormous at high speeds, specially when cornering and braking. Most forces increase proportionally to the square of the speed. I am working now on the restauration of suspension, subrame and rear axle of a 1600 rally car. It is revealing to see how much more all rubbers have suffered from the higher speeds compared to the 1300 cars There is no rubber without cracks and from most rubbers pieces are simply torn off.
Italians say "better is the enemy of good". So, I figure that if I can lock the wheels with the pads I have, do not suffer from any fading and cover a very reasonable 30.000 km with a set of pads at the front without any serious wear on the disks I am quite happy.
The reason I like the 60's Lancia's is there responsiveness causing my input and output to be in balance so I don't fall asleep nor need any rest. In fact it is relaxing. Turning the handle to open a window is not labour it is input.
I fully appreciate that the automobile industry is continuing to try to sell me a modern car by building in ABS, ESP, ABC, DEF, GHI, JKL etc to compensate for the fact that I fall asleep, but I am not going to fall for it. I rather stay awake. Even fading brakes are better than all that jazz. It means I have to react in the here and now to actual circumstances rather than tripping into planning.
I have heard that in America people nowadays use escalators to go upstairs in the gym.
I bought my first Lancia in 67 or 68. This was a souped up Flavia coupe iniezione with of course Dunlop brakes. There were no speed limits at that time and also I was a whole lot younger, pedal to the metal all the time. My wife (girlfriend at the time) had a Flaminia Touring convertible to drive to work. I often used it to outrun the Porsches of the highway police. It was also used on the track often by myself and more experienced race drivers, who drove it even faster. In 1970 a bought a Fulvia berlina with Dunlop brakes. Still no speed limits, I drove it fast on the track and through almost every mountain range in Europe. Always with good quality standard pads. I have never had a fading problem.
In 1996 I changed back to the old Lancia's. Mostly Fulvia's but also Flaminia and Flavia. The Flaminia and Fulvia's were also rallied. No brake problems except with the Flaminia when I just got it which triggered me in doing a lot of research in getting the Dunlop brakes all right. Apart from that, never a problem.
I also use a Fulvia for daily driving. Before 2000 I alternated cars, but found that too expensive. I now use a single Fulvia which does about 40.000 km per year. This is a 1967 coupe rallye 1.3, my favourite. Most of the time the car is driven normally, not raced nor rallied as I find driving very fast to be too expensive and it takes too long to get to the destination (requiring various rests on say a 1200 km trip). Driving just below very fast is a whole lot cheaper and gets me much quicker to where I want to go as I only have to stop a few minutes at the petrol station.
Also the car has to be ready all the time. My wife and I agree that the only countries on this world were it is possible to get a decent meal at a decent price are France and Italy and possibly Thailand, but that is just too far. So any time we decide to drive 700 or 1200 km's (one way) for a meal, the Fulvia has to be able to do it as I simply refuse to drive any car other than Fulvia, Flavia or Flaminia. Turn the key and go.
The mechanical forces on the car, its parts and the rubbers are enormous at high speeds, specially when cornering and braking. Most forces increase proportionally to the square of the speed. I am working now on the restauration of suspension, subrame and rear axle of a 1600 rally car. It is revealing to see how much more all rubbers have suffered from the higher speeds compared to the 1300 cars There is no rubber without cracks and from most rubbers pieces are simply torn off.
Italians say "better is the enemy of good". So, I figure that if I can lock the wheels with the pads I have, do not suffer from any fading and cover a very reasonable 30.000 km with a set of pads at the front without any serious wear on the disks I am quite happy.
The reason I like the 60's Lancia's is there responsiveness causing my input and output to be in balance so I don't fall asleep nor need any rest. In fact it is relaxing. Turning the handle to open a window is not labour it is input.
I fully appreciate that the automobile industry is continuing to try to sell me a modern car by building in ABS, ESP, ABC, DEF, GHI, JKL etc to compensate for the fact that I fall asleep, but I am not going to fall for it. I rather stay awake. Even fading brakes are better than all that jazz. It means I have to react in the here and now to actual circumstances rather than tripping into planning.
I have heard that in America people nowadays use escalators to go upstairs in the gym.
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shaun pond
Re: brake fade
Huib:
Okay, now I want to hear about you outrunning the motorway police in their Porsches. These were the orange 911s, yes?
I knew that Lancia bested Porsche in the 72 Monte Carlo Rally, but I didn't realize that the tradition had started earlier than that :>)
Okay, now I want to hear about you outrunning the motorway police in their Porsches. These were the orange 911s, yes?
I knew that Lancia bested Porsche in the 72 Monte Carlo Rally, but I didn't realize that the tradition had started earlier than that :>)
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Huib
Re: brake fade
Cilinder corrosion is usually the cause of leakage. The seal is at the bottom of the piston. There is air in the gap between the upper 90% of the piston and the cilinder. The brakes heat up and cool down causing a pump action of air into the gap. If there is air there is moisture. If there is moisture there is condensation. If there is condensation there is rust. If there is even the smallest leakage of brake fluid the problem accelerates quickly because the brake fluid is hygroscopic.
When the pads are wearing the piston moves forward and the seal suddenly gets to the bad part without advance warning. The seals can stand some uneveness of the cilinder wall, but if it is to bad, leakage will occur.
The quick solution is to push the piston back in and mount a new pad.
When I change the pads on one of my own cars I always take the callipers off, take them apart, clean cilinders and pistons and assemble them again with a special silicon grease which I also massage into the gap. All very careful of course. Not too much grease to avoid that it drips onto discs or pads when hot. It is a few hours of extra work, but maintenance and service is part of old cars.
When the pads are wearing the piston moves forward and the seal suddenly gets to the bad part without advance warning. The seals can stand some uneveness of the cilinder wall, but if it is to bad, leakage will occur.
The quick solution is to push the piston back in and mount a new pad.
When I change the pads on one of my own cars I always take the callipers off, take them apart, clean cilinders and pistons and assemble them again with a special silicon grease which I also massage into the gap. All very careful of course. Not too much grease to avoid that it drips onto discs or pads when hot. It is a few hours of extra work, but maintenance and service is part of old cars.
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Paul Duncan