Fiat Top Manager is killing Lancia !!!!! IMPORTANT !

[Ryan]

Alan, your first sentence was just a bit out there, with "Italians
are this and that". I like cars from various countries, but I really
can't stand when the automotive products of a particuliar nation
the are attached to the "race" of that country. If so, does this
mean Koreans are junk? (because I think Korean cars are junk?)

That was my only point. Yeah, talk FIAT, talk Lancia.. but not
the entire nation's people! ;>

Anyway, lets just hope that FIAT can get their act together and
do some good work with Lancia now. I also hope that they change
their ways from what the good Huib pointed out with the cheap
steel.

take care, and viva lancia.
ryan

[Alan Cooper]

unfortunately many cars are now built with the same passion as is placed in a washing machine. Wherever a car is from the best are always those where the designers have been allowed some margin to exercise their own imagination if nothing else we should celibrate the fact that Fiat have allowed this over the years it is unfortunate that lancia has been sort of run into a corner but if we look back to 1969 would anyone else have done so well it is very unlikely fantastic as they were no company could make cars engineered regardless of cost and stay in business in the modern world if lancia had been bought by anyone else I am sure the decline into badge engineering would have been faster and more final.

[Huib Geurink]

Stop a million Italians on the street and ask them what the secret is of excellent cooking. The million answers will all be the same: "Good quality ingredients". Many will add "And keep it simple".

Did you know that in the 30's the mechanics of Lancia dealers in Italy went on strike? The quality of the Augusta was so good, they feared they would loose their jobs.

A leading Italian car magazine in the fifties tested cars over a longer period of time. The Appia was judged to be the most reliable car of the time. 160.000 km's without repairs. Just regular maintenance.

My grey cells also seem to remember, that in the 60's there was a road test in a magazine somewhere were the quality of the Fulvia was judged to be better than that of Mercedes. If somebody has the article, please, send me a copy.

In the pre Fiat times, Lancia did sometimes go to funny extremes concerning quality and safety. But isn't that exactly what makes a Lancia a Lancia?

R.I.P.? Not yet!

[Alan Cooper]

we can cry all we want but we will never see the like of Lancia-Lancias in any car again it is just too costly. I admit that working on a Fiat era car I have often thought 'Lancia would NEVER have made this like this' however some of the cars are still simply brilliant; crap electrics maybe (I am not sure they know what a relay does...) but in terms of the mechanics a Beta ,for instance, is still fantastic and is a brilliant drive; the slide comes when we saw the cars being compromised by using pure Fiat chassis design ,the Dedra it has to be said, nice though it is in some ways , handles like a dog compared with almost any other Lancia just feels WRONG. The woes were cured eventually as my Delta HPE testifies; it drives so well it is hard to believe the basic design is the same but the marques reputation was severely dented and this was probably another reason that we lost RHD sales in the UK. Quality wise the Delta is not too bad but would probably irritate the average Toyota driver to distraction. The good and promising signs are that at least there seems to be some divergence in design coming back going beyond the outer skin but in a lot of ways the family line has been broken only time is now going to tell but as with most modern products marketing and superficial image are going to be king not true quality of design.

[Alberto]

Huib,
as you may already know, I agree with everything you have written, and to add this, Ella, my 1971 Fulvia is the first Italian car I've ever bought. When I was 18 I was about to buy a Y10 FILA 2 (very nice look indeed) but I went around and I went for a Vw Polo judging both cars on the sound they made tiptapping with my fingers on the door panels: The polo sounded like a deep solid car, whilst the tiny lancia (and I must say Unos and 205s weren't that different) were like rolling drums.
Two years later I had a very bad accident and I went out without any seroius damage: The Polo was good for junkyard, but I'm still wondering if with the Y10 I'd tell the tale... I went for another Polo, this time a GT 1,3 w/o catalist, on which I installed a Diavia A/C: 130000 km and no problems at all: on the day I was giving it back to the dealer (24 July 1998) it scored a 198 kph (well, I've got no ticket to prove, but I have a witness...)... Then I passed on to an Opel Astra 1,6, another great car, I wouldn't have swapped it if I had not needed a family car anymore...in the middle I have driven a Golf III 1,6 (my father's one, no great pros, but absolutely no cons at all) a Fiesta 1,2 16V (my mum's, great chassis, grat engine, poor brakes, but no troubles at all) and my former wife's Fiat Punto 6 speed, IMHO one of the last interesting italian cars, with which I had no trouble but I risked to blast on fire once due to poor quality fuel filter...). In the end I had to go for a car for a single... and of all the cars I had in mind , no one was italian... I have a Z3 and it's absolutely fantastic (except on snow)...but no one of the above cars can give me the feeling of driving Ella... What about writing to Fiat headquarters (Now Boschetti is in charge, and Cantarella's importance is fading) and ask for what I've already asked?!? A Fulvia retro in my honest opinion would be a hit in many ways, like New Beetle and New Mini are...In the end they have the braveness to say they make a new Aurelia with the Thesis... all they have to do in Turin is bringing passion in what they are doing, and I'm sure that with passion many things can be achieved!
Alberto

[Randy Adams]

I hate to sound like a killjoy, but I believe that Lancia would be better off as an honored marque from yesteryear.

Fiat has never had much of a clue how to build a Lancia. The Beta range featured the Lancia stylistic virtues but were entirely lacking in the mechanical integrity. The Gamma range was a true Lancia but forced into production before development was finished. And, sorry, the Thema was just a bland "world car." The Delta Integrale is great but the rest of the range is bland and forgettable. And everything since then is worse. Thanks to Fiat, everyone seems to have forgotten that Lancia was the most innovative designer of engines in all of Europe. One small company invented and developed the narrow angle V-4 and V-8, and the original 60 degree V-6 (when everybody else thought it was impossible). The validity of these designs has been implicitly acknowledged by other automakers since. The same goes for Lancia's brilliant chassis and suspension concepts. Alfa simply updated the basic Flaminia design of 1957 and called it the Alfa 75. Dare I suggest that Rudy Hruska just copied the Lancia Flavia to create the Alfasud?

In the U.S., I can't even buy a new Lancia but I don't think I'm missing much. My 21 year old Beta coupe soldiers on for daily driver duties. It looks better and better with every passing year, but the engine will be forever buzzy. No new Lancia can come anywhere near the Beta coupe for aesthetic appeal. My various Flaminias make my heart sing each time I drive one of them. I remember the Fulvias having exactly the same effect.

With the exception of the Corvette, General Motors builds undistinguished cars of very dubious reliability. That's why their share of the U.S. market keeps shrinking. Their association with Fiat only promises that things will get much worse in the world of Italian cars.

Lancia was too romantic a car company to survive in the modern world. They honestly believed in building the best car they could and trusted that people would recognize their efforts. I'd rather remember Lancia for that quixotic quality and gather together my own favorite examples of the breed and honor them. I'd rather not have to compete with people's more recent memories of dull sedans with upmarket variations on Fiat design philosophy.

[Ryan]

I think the Lancia Y was a very nice design, but it does bother me that
they continue to base the Y on old the old Punto platform, and I think
that the 2003 Y replacement will be finally based on the new Punto.

It seems to me that if indeed Lancia (and Alfa) are the premier luxury
and sports brands of the Group, they should be first come first serve.

I'm still hoping we can see a genuine Lancia renaissance. We've had
alot of bagging on FIAT (and some on Alfa), but all in all these companies
have still on their own made some cars that really influenced my passion
for cars (unlike companies like GM and Chrysler which have done
absolutely nothing...).

Lets just hope that some passionate people in Torino can go and make
some amazing cars. They did the Y to get started, now getting on with
the Lybra and Thesis..I'm not satisfied, but maybe things will progress.

Any more thoughts? Do you all think the Thesis will be a success?
My main gripe is that they shouldn't remove all sportiness, just for
the sake of not conflicting with Alfa. Also, they could of came up with
a more elegant shape. Just refer to E-class. Beautiful Benz that is
(thought not a fan of Benz).

take care,
Ryan

[Simon Spearman-Oxx]

As a designer for well known car maker I can explain how the very self conscious world of Branding creates a default brand within the stable of marques;
one brand can not have the attributes that are the Identity of another.
In the case of Lancia, it cannot be sporty!That belongs to Alfa!?.
Everybody knows that Lancia was always a fine car dynamically.(A properly finished Alfa, in the Dedra/Tipo/155 etc era)
The book celebrating 100 years of Fiat explains the regrets at Fiat over the Tipo family of cars.And the156 has been the rebirth of Alfa. The Lybra was reworked by Mike Robinson with more faux wood and brightwork when the dealers said the could not sell it.Allowed the aspirational Performance model it would be OK and it appears to hold its value OK in Italy according to Quattroruote. But wheres the Alfa beater? Perhaps the extra cost of finishing it off so well makes the profit margin tighter than the Alfa.That faux wood is expensive stuff as is Alcantara.Hence the special edition Executive Lybra with silver paint instead of wood on the inside.
Lets hope Lancia gets a sponsor perhaps a dealer to provide the performance models.

[Bryan Melton]

I've just discovered this forum and ploughed through all the comments on the predicted demise of Lancia. It is sad that such an important marque with so much history should come to end, howver the name cannot be destroyed so think for a moment about the revival of MG ! You can't keep a good name down.
As for me I shall continue to enjoy and cherish my Fulvia Zagato and keep for every the memories of the driving (but necessarily owning) pleasures of my Beta coupe and HPEs.
Forget the modern Euroboxes, they are not Lancia's.

[Juergen]

....you hope Mercedes will buy Lancia ? This will never ever happen - think of ROVER and BMW, billions of Deutschmark
for nothing or better for many problems. Sorry I have no solution for the Lancia problems - the last real famous Lancia was the Delta Integrale - why not start there again...JKW