The word restoration is not protected. Can mean anything to anybody. I like the cars where the body has been done and the technical part untouched. The price would have been higher and the work would have been bad.
Remember that in the sixties at Fiat the bookkeepers were the boss, at Alfa Romeo the salesmen, at Lancia the engineers. Lancia's were expensive. High precision and high quality. Ferrari did use same parts as Lancia did. If you cannot find parts like the wishbone bushes in the Lancia circuit you can try our Ferrair friends. I would convert the upper wishbone bushes to the silent blocs used at the bottom. You can buy a conversion set from me.
You can also order the shocks from me. They are delicate but if you mount them correctly they last for a very long time. Don't let the front wheels hang for a long time without putting the tool around the front spring and the cross member to keep the front spring up.
The shocks raise the ride by about 2 cm. Don't try to compensate for tired springs by putting De Carbon shocks. The other way around the leaf springs absorb shock when the leaves move against each other. The Lancia leaf springs are very high tech. The springs of the 2000 coupé's even more so. They need to be rebuild too. If the leaves are open at the ends they have to be tampered.Tampering the leaves is usually not necessary for the 2000 springs. Clean, paint and assemble with new plastic between the leaves exactly as the workshop manual says. No grease. No graphite. The new plastic just a bit shorter than the leaf. It took me years to find someone who fully understands the Lancia springs and tampers them exactly right. But as I said the leaves of the 2000 are usually all right.
Unfortunately for many years the Lancia community went for low cost imitation parts rather than high quality. Stay away from polyurethane. Natural rubber. Vulcanised.
The shackle block is a problem. The ones on the market are not good. The internal construction is lacking. If you wish to participate we can discuss having a batch made which are good from the highest quality rubber and steel.
Take the wobbling of the discs seriously. It gives less vibration and you are sure hubs etc are undamaged. If you cannot get the wobble under 30 micron, it usually means that somewhere in the past the car drove too long with a bad wheel bearing. This overheated and deformed the hub.
Get rid of any vibration. It causes metal fatigue and turns rubbers into blubbers.
Did you do a wheel geometry check? If not I suggest to do one to make sure the car is straight.
Also check the Hardy disc between steering column and steering box, It is made of 5 layers of canvas. Sandwiched around the center layer are 4 spring steel segments. If the canvas layers start to seperate the spring steel segments have rusted away. The aftermarket discs do not have the steel segments. They are dangerous. It is possible to use the ones used by Mercedes but you loose the subtle Lancia feeling in the steering.
I will try to find a picture of the conversion set for the upper wishbones and post it.
The angle of the rear shocks is probably for structural reasons. The mounting bracket is on the strong cross member under the rear seat.
Rear axle hop
Re: Rear axle hop
Huib,
Thanks for the info dump. You really pointed me in the right direction. I've determined the following:
The spring position under load (measured from the bump rubber) is 8.5 cm. Spec is 5cm, plus the 2 cm you said is added by Decarbons, equals 7cm. So at some point, maybe when Decarbons were unavailable, someone must have fitted stiffer springs. The springs move smooth- no stiction.
The shocks are bad. Bump rate is 5 cps (at 22 Kg) and rebound is 2.5 cps. Spec for Decarbons is 1 cps with 1:3 bump/rebound ratio in vicinity of loaded deflection.
So if I switch to Decarbons I will need to find a set of original springs. Or I can fit Spax which will probably eliminate bump steer but at the expense of slightly harsher ride.
Other than the bump steer problem, the ride is smooth. No vibration, clunks or rattles. I did check the alignment. Surprised the spec calls for toe-out on a street car. Turn in is excellent- maybe a little too good for highway driving.
Do you know which Ferraris used the same upper wishbone bushes?
My steering column attaches directly to the box input shaft. No isolator.
If I'm asking too many questions, please say so. Thanks again for the help.
Thanks for the info dump. You really pointed me in the right direction. I've determined the following:
The spring position under load (measured from the bump rubber) is 8.5 cm. Spec is 5cm, plus the 2 cm you said is added by Decarbons, equals 7cm. So at some point, maybe when Decarbons were unavailable, someone must have fitted stiffer springs. The springs move smooth- no stiction.
The shocks are bad. Bump rate is 5 cps (at 22 Kg) and rebound is 2.5 cps. Spec for Decarbons is 1 cps with 1:3 bump/rebound ratio in vicinity of loaded deflection.
So if I switch to Decarbons I will need to find a set of original springs. Or I can fit Spax which will probably eliminate bump steer but at the expense of slightly harsher ride.
Other than the bump steer problem, the ride is smooth. No vibration, clunks or rattles. I did check the alignment. Surprised the spec calls for toe-out on a street car. Turn in is excellent- maybe a little too good for highway driving.
Do you know which Ferraris used the same upper wishbone bushes?
My steering column attaches directly to the box input shaft. No isolator.
If I'm asking too many questions, please say so. Thanks again for the help.
Re: Rear axle hop
The cars we worked on are the Flavia 2000 coupé, type 820.030. You have the HF. When you mentioned you did not have the Hardy disc on the steering I realized that your car may be a different type. What is the chassis number?
I doubt if stiffer springs were put in. The bolts may have been torqued at a position different from specified. The shackle bloc may be a bad original one or a incorrect imitation. The 2 cm I mentioned may be incorrect. That value was mentioned in an email I got from a customer saying his Fulvia coupe went up 2 cm and arrived at the specified height. I don't know how his springs are.
I never ordered parts from Ferrari myself. I can't help you there. I follow the conversion suggested by Lancia. I am preparing a posting about the conversion. I have to check the parts book of the HF first.
Toe out is normal for front wheel drive cars. Did you check axle off-set, wheel base L + R, caster, camber?
I doubt if stiffer springs were put in. The bolts may have been torqued at a position different from specified. The shackle bloc may be a bad original one or a incorrect imitation. The 2 cm I mentioned may be incorrect. That value was mentioned in an email I got from a customer saying his Fulvia coupe went up 2 cm and arrived at the specified height. I don't know how his springs are.
I never ordered parts from Ferrari myself. I can't help you there. I follow the conversion suggested by Lancia. I am preparing a posting about the conversion. I have to check the parts book of the HF first.
Toe out is normal for front wheel drive cars. Did you check axle off-set, wheel base L + R, caster, camber?
Re: Rear axle hop
Conversion set to convert Fulvia S1 and Flavia's to silent blocs from greased bushes.
This set is for cars without power steering.
Counting from the top.
nr 1. Complete set for one top wishbone including silent blocs. The silent blocs are standard Lancia. 2 are needed per car.
nr 2. Stainless steel bolt and bushes. Small bushes to convert the hole in the arm from 18mm to 14mm. Bigger bushes to go in between the silent blocs. The thread is metric fine. The threaded part is just short enough to guarantee that the unthreaded part bears in the hole. The nut is zinc plated all steel self locking grade 10.
nr 3 and 4 are needed for the lower wishbones. 4 are needed per car.
The Flavia's with power steering need a longer bolt and bushes at the top. That set is made to order.
Counting from the top.
nr 1. Complete set for one top wishbone including silent blocs. The silent blocs are standard Lancia. 2 are needed per car.
nr 2. Stainless steel bolt and bushes. Small bushes to convert the hole in the arm from 18mm to 14mm. Bigger bushes to go in between the silent blocs. The thread is metric fine. The threaded part is just short enough to guarantee that the unthreaded part bears in the hole. The nut is zinc plated all steel self locking grade 10.
nr 3 and 4 are needed for the lower wishbones. 4 are needed per car.
The Flavia's with power steering need a longer bolt and bushes at the top. That set is made to order.
Re: Rear axle hop
Steering column.
You have the later steering column with the cardanic joints. Check the joints carefully for play holding them in the position they are in when driving straight.
You have the later steering column with the cardanic joints. Check the joints carefully for play holding them in the position they are in when driving straight.
Re: Rear axle hop
Huib,
Mine's an 820.436. There's six leaves. Fig 48 in the manual shows five; one full length at top. Mine has 2 full length on top. The rear shackle block is 10 deg from vertical (top-fwd, bot-aft). Is there a spec?
I'll try loosening the center bolts and re-tightening at zero camber if the weight of the car's enough to get it there, which I very much doubt.
Do you have the dimensional information required to build a set of silent blocks for my car? Is this what you mean when you say you "follow conversion recommended by Lancia"? What would be the cost/price?
Mine's an 820.436. There's six leaves. Fig 48 in the manual shows five; one full length at top. Mine has 2 full length on top. The rear shackle block is 10 deg from vertical (top-fwd, bot-aft). Is there a spec?
I'll try loosening the center bolts and re-tightening at zero camber if the weight of the car's enough to get it there, which I very much doubt.
Do you have the dimensional information required to build a set of silent blocks for my car? Is this what you mean when you say you "follow conversion recommended by Lancia"? What would be the cost/price?
Re: Rear axle hop
I was about to dive under the 820.030 to photograph the rear spring when my telephone indicated I had to hurry to pick up my granddaughter Phine from school. I do not want to miss that. Few things are more beautiful than waiting in front of the doors between all those beautiful mama's, papa's, grannies and grandpa's. Small talk. Doors open. The future comes out dancing. An exciting balance of mind, body and soul or torso, limbs and bones or form, content and spontaneity, whatever words you prefer. Did you know that Lancia had its own school? If you want to be the most creative car maker you need your own school. A good friend is doing her thesis at the university of Torino on Lancismo. I hope there will be a chapter about the school.
Tomorrow I will take granddaughter Florrie (in 6 weeks she will go to school too) and both grannies to lunch on a farm close to the Belgian border (I am in the Netherlands) in the most brilliant Italian car of the sixties which is the Fulvia berlina 2C. Original paint. 42.000 km total.
Obviously we have to do some more investigation on the springs.
In the meantime let's define some words. What I call shackle block is this:
It is at the top of the shackle hidden in the member above the spring.
I am working on producing it with the highest quality natural rubber and the proper hardware inside.
What I call bushes are the things which can be taken apart, rotate more than 360 degrees and usually greased.
Silent blocs consist of two bushes with rubber in between. They cannot rotate more than 15 degrees one way and 15 degrees the other way. Total swing 30 degrees. The rubber does the hinging. No friction. No greasing. Reduces vibration.
Standard quality: the rubber is pressed between the two bushes.
Lancia quality: the rubber is vulcanised to the bushes.
When the Flavia was introduced in 1960 and the Fulvia in 1963, they both had bushes for the wishbones. Longer ones at the top. Shorter ones at the bottom. With flanges, rings, grease nipples and M18 bolts.
Around 1970 Lancia replaced the ones at the bottom with silent blocs which also had the flanges. On the Fulvia the top ones were replaced by same silent blocs as used at the bottom. It needed a different upper wishbone to maintain the good engineering practice of having shim rings between the silent blocs and the wishbones (to change the caster).
I have not seen a Flavia (in 1970 all 2000's I think) with the same type of upper wishbone the last Fulvia's have.
The upper bushes last a long time because they are longer and won't rattle because they are loaded with a percentage of the weight of the car and suffer less from oil leakage.
When the stock of bushes for the top ran out, Lancia advised to convert to the silent blocs as used at the bottom and forget about the engineering practice of having washers between wishbones and silent blocs.
That is what the conversion sets as on the picture in this thread do. The sets in the Lancia aftermarket I don't like as I wrote earlier. Also the length of the spacer bushes is not correct in the aftermarket sets. I make the sets myself and sell them either with or without the silent blocs. The silent blocs shown in the picture are the better aftermarket ones.
This morning I did the final test of silent bloc prototypes I had made with top quality rubber and steel. They are approved. An hour ago I ordered a large batch. Interestingly they are more than 100 grams heavier than the standard aftermarket units.
You can buy from me the shock absorbers (https://viva-lancia.com/specials/de-car ... carbon.htm), the conversion sets for the front, high quality silent blocs for the wishbones and hopefully soon the correct shackle blocs.
Tomorrow I will take granddaughter Florrie (in 6 weeks she will go to school too) and both grannies to lunch on a farm close to the Belgian border (I am in the Netherlands) in the most brilliant Italian car of the sixties which is the Fulvia berlina 2C. Original paint. 42.000 km total.
Obviously we have to do some more investigation on the springs.
In the meantime let's define some words. What I call shackle block is this:
I am working on producing it with the highest quality natural rubber and the proper hardware inside.
What I call bushes are the things which can be taken apart, rotate more than 360 degrees and usually greased.
Silent blocs consist of two bushes with rubber in between. They cannot rotate more than 15 degrees one way and 15 degrees the other way. Total swing 30 degrees. The rubber does the hinging. No friction. No greasing. Reduces vibration.
Standard quality: the rubber is pressed between the two bushes.
Lancia quality: the rubber is vulcanised to the bushes.
When the Flavia was introduced in 1960 and the Fulvia in 1963, they both had bushes for the wishbones. Longer ones at the top. Shorter ones at the bottom. With flanges, rings, grease nipples and M18 bolts.
Around 1970 Lancia replaced the ones at the bottom with silent blocs which also had the flanges. On the Fulvia the top ones were replaced by same silent blocs as used at the bottom. It needed a different upper wishbone to maintain the good engineering practice of having shim rings between the silent blocs and the wishbones (to change the caster).
I have not seen a Flavia (in 1970 all 2000's I think) with the same type of upper wishbone the last Fulvia's have.
The upper bushes last a long time because they are longer and won't rattle because they are loaded with a percentage of the weight of the car and suffer less from oil leakage.
When the stock of bushes for the top ran out, Lancia advised to convert to the silent blocs as used at the bottom and forget about the engineering practice of having washers between wishbones and silent blocs.
That is what the conversion sets as on the picture in this thread do. The sets in the Lancia aftermarket I don't like as I wrote earlier. Also the length of the spacer bushes is not correct in the aftermarket sets. I make the sets myself and sell them either with or without the silent blocs. The silent blocs shown in the picture are the better aftermarket ones.
This morning I did the final test of silent bloc prototypes I had made with top quality rubber and steel. They are approved. An hour ago I ordered a large batch. Interestingly they are more than 100 grams heavier than the standard aftermarket units.
You can buy from me the shock absorbers (https://viva-lancia.com/specials/de-car ... carbon.htm), the conversion sets for the front, high quality silent blocs for the wishbones and hopefully soon the correct shackle blocs.
Re: Rear axle hop
Seems you have been blessed both in your work and home life. Never been to NL. Looks beautiful on Rick Steves. Max is the best ever and I'm old enough to have seen Mario, Niki and James race.
Yes, Metalastic and two-piece bushes work differently if you don't grease them. Jag used to put slight knurl on the shafts. Never understood why they wanted additional spring force and damping, as opposed to just vibration isolation. My front upper bushes are cracked and brittle where visible
under the washers although, as you say, they may be OK inside.
Thanks for explaining shackle rubbers. Mine has them only at the rear ends of springs. Don't know their condition.
I noticed in the manual Lancia fitted stiffer springs to cars w/ tow hitches. That might account for the extra 3 cm of positive camber on my car, although no sign of tow hitch having been fitted.
I ordered a set of AVO adjustables as a short term solution until I can figure out why the springs have excess camber. I will further evaluate condition of all front and rear components once I finish my current project- pulling my V/P boat diesel to fix an oil leak. I will get back to you in a few months to price the required replacement parts.
Thanks for all the free advice and enjoy your precious little ones.
Best regards
Yes, Metalastic and two-piece bushes work differently if you don't grease them. Jag used to put slight knurl on the shafts. Never understood why they wanted additional spring force and damping, as opposed to just vibration isolation. My front upper bushes are cracked and brittle where visible
under the washers although, as you say, they may be OK inside.
Thanks for explaining shackle rubbers. Mine has them only at the rear ends of springs. Don't know their condition.
I noticed in the manual Lancia fitted stiffer springs to cars w/ tow hitches. That might account for the extra 3 cm of positive camber on my car, although no sign of tow hitch having been fitted.
I ordered a set of AVO adjustables as a short term solution until I can figure out why the springs have excess camber. I will further evaluate condition of all front and rear components once I finish my current project- pulling my V/P boat diesel to fix an oil leak. I will get back to you in a few months to price the required replacement parts.
Thanks for all the free advice and enjoy your precious little ones.
Best regards