Cooling liquid in oil circuit Flavia Vignale

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FL30
Posts: 264
Joined: 30 Sep 2009, 19:17

Cooling liquid in oil circuit Flavia Vignale

Unread post by FL30 »

To cut a long preceding story short, after a very expensive rebuild of my Flavia Vignale engine (815.300) at a well reputaded shop, several damages occured during the first 2000 kms. Finally the liners and pistons had to be replaced. Right after doing so, there was water migrating into the oil circuit. Two things have been duly checked. First the liners have been extracted and mounted and sealed again, paying a lot of attention to the sealing including a special high temperature chemically resistant liquid seal used in addition to the mandatory paper rings. Second the head gaskets had been inspected very carefully, they show now signs of leakage. The protrusion of the liners is as required.

Does anyone have experience about this?
Hubert
Bert Ewalds
Posts: 247
Joined: 22 Dec 2008, 00:13

Re: Cooling liquid in oil circuit Flavia Vignale

Unread post by Bert Ewalds »

Hallo Hubert,

The shop that reground the liners in my Flavia engine, 815. 400 (Injection) did away with the paper gaskets.
They milled a groove in the bottom of the rim of the liner and fitted a rubber O- ring.
They also topped it of with liquid sealant, see picture.
Apparently this is the way Alfa Romeo did it in their engines.
I completely rebuilt the engine myself.
Engine has meanwhile done some 8,500 kms and up to now does not loose a drop of coolant.(knock on wood)
I can give you the name of the Dutch shop in a private message if you want.


best regards,

Bert
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Bert Ewalds
Posts: 247
Joined: 22 Dec 2008, 00:13

Re: Cooling liquid in oil circuit Flavia Vignale

Unread post by Bert Ewalds »

Hello Hubert,

Further to my prior message.
From your post it is not completely clear whether the engine currently still leaks water, after the careful refitting of the liners and inspection of the head gaskets.
If the engine has been put together again and still leaks there is still another opportunity for leakage, unfortunetaly that would be a very nasty one.
So please don't be alarmed, I just mention the possibility.
I think it is possible to check for it, without too much effort, but only do so if other options have failed.

As you probably know, the tightening sequence for the cilinder head bolts in the Flavia deviate from common practice, the work from outside of the engine inward, instead of inward out.
According to the shop that reground my cilinder linings this has a reason.
The last bolt you tighten is number 11 and this sits between te cilinders see photo 1
If you look it the other side of the engine you see that the stump that holds the bolt is largely hollow, photo 2
I was warned by the shop to religiously adhere to the tightening sequence and be very careful about bolt number 11, the stump might crack on overtightening.
In the end I was so scared I only tightened it to about 80% on my own engine.

I never had to check it, so I am now on thin ice, but I think it is possible, but pleas only after you looked at the more obvious causes.
I need a next post for this, because I have run out of space for attaching a third photo
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Bert Ewalds
Posts: 247
Joined: 22 Dec 2008, 00:13

Re: Cooling liquid in oil circuit Flavia Vignale

Unread post by Bert Ewalds »

Here we go again, see photo 3 and compare to photo 2 in the previous post

As you can see the hollow stump foor headbolt 11 , sits just besides the support for the central crankshaft bearing.

So by removing the carburettors and and the top cover you should be able to see it, while you can leave both coolant and oil in the engine.
(You may want to remove the oil)
I think if you clean the area around the stump, and then pressurize the cooling system, you should be able to detect a crack there.

If it is, the cause is wrong tightening sequence or overtightening bolt nr 11.

I sincerely hope, that you won't need this information and have already solved your coolant loss problem

best regards,

Bert
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FL30
Posts: 264
Joined: 30 Sep 2009, 19:17

Re: Cooling liquid in oil circuit Flavia Vignale

Unread post by FL30 »

Hello Bert,

I fear that is the hint I was waiting for.

But let me tell you the whole story of this engine.

When I restored the car, I decided not to do the engine myself, but had it made in a well renown shop. The car smoked right from the beginning. When starting after a few days or more it was quite a cloud coming out. At that time I thought it might be some oil residue in the exhaust. Less than 1000kms after the rebuild it blew both headgaskets, which showed mechanical damages when dismantled. Another 500kms later the timing chain jumped over and bent one of the valves. When dismantling the complete engine, I found out that the shop had manipulated the chain tensioner by putting three washers in the tube housing the spring. The size of the washers was chosen so stupidly that they started moving downwards along the spring blocking it. At that point it became obvious that the liners had not been bored properly. There were significant areas with old corrosion visible. The honing marks went over these areas. At that time I wanted to use the car and postponed the change of the liners/pistons.

Six weeks ago the window was open for the liner exchange. After assembly the engine ran perfectly, very quit and smooth, no smoke, but showed water in the oil after very short time. I had fixed the head bolts without the manual at hand, meaning I recalled the tightening sequence from memory. Considering your post, that was the point where I killed the engine.

The engine was dismantled once again, liners installed and perfectly sealed, protrusion checked, heads checked and gaskets replaced. Heads tightened exactly according to the manual. But the damage was doneX(

The question now is, do I dismantle the thing a sixth time to verify the cause and probably make an efford to repair the damage or simply throw it in the crusher?
Hubert
LanciaFin
Posts: 155
Joined: 04 Dec 2011, 16:40

Re: Cooling liquid in oil circuit Flavia Vignale

Unread post by LanciaFin »

Hi Hubert,

Please don't throw it to crusher, as it surely has many valuable parts left. :)

Have you checked the aluminum plugs in the heads? These are a common source for water leaks to oil. Even though I have little experience of these engines, I find it diffcult to believe that you'd have cracked your engine block, as it is very sturdy design and material. Drain the coolant, put a moderate air pressure in cooling system (0.5bar should be maximum, if you don't disconnect heater and radiator) and check the plugs under rocker covers.

My guess is, that some old sealing material was accidently left between some liner and block and it's leaking from there. The pressure test should reveal the culprit.

My engine has survived past the 1000km mark without internal leaks (knock-knock.) The head gaskets are still oozing a drop or two from upper side, which seems to have been pretty common after rebuilds. Hopefully it will settle after next retightening.

Best regards,
- Miika
Bert Ewalds
Posts: 247
Joined: 22 Dec 2008, 00:13

Re: Cooling liquid in oil circuit Flavia Vignale

Unread post by Bert Ewalds »

Hello Hubert,

I side with Lancia Fin, don't throw it in the bin.
I also indicated how you can relatively easily test the possibility that I mentioned, it isn't sure that his has actually happened.
Removing the carburettors and the top lid is an "engine in the car job", you will only need some new gaskets.
By pressuring the cooling system via the radiator cap (there are special simple pumps available to do that, you can just test.
Next you can also test Lancia Fin's option.
In itself the engine is indeed sturdy, Mine had done 235,000 km's and had suffered a seized piston at about 140,000 km with a prior owner. but they just repaired.
It was still running only the oil pressure was way too low. thats why I took it apart.

so please test first.

best regards,

Bert
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