Seized Flavia Engine

CD's with workshop manuals, parts book and other documentation New: electronic distributor
gcarenini
Posts: 1496
Joined: 18 Jan 2011, 12:21

Re: Seized Flavia Engine

Unread post by gcarenini »

Dear Viiking,

I read carefully your last post, your definition of "butcher's method" is really appropriated...
The Lancia engines has been engineered in a very refined way, with state of art (for that time) materials and tolerances, the Flavia's engine halves was the biggest aluminium alloy die casting for automotive of that period, the wet liners has been done in special cast iron and are simply inserted (not pressed or fixed) into the crank case.
I had the same issue dismantling some 815 series engines in both carburetted and fuel injected version, in that cases you have to be patient and, as suggested by Miika, use penetrating oil to "lubricate" the liners and dissolve the deposit that prevent the exit from the block. You could also use diesel fluid, in worst case plunging the whole block and leaving it days or weeks into, in this way you will be able to extract smoothly the liners.
The above methods are time consuming but will ensure you to avoid any daage.
In normal situation, is really easy to extract the liners from the block, just pulling it with your hads, without any tool.
Regarding the image that you seen, showing a bolt used to keep the liners in position, this is used only during the assembly, then removed, when the engine is assembled the liners are kept in position by the cylinder heads only.
When you disassemble an engine is quite common to non see any presence of the old paper gasket between liners and block. Is right the suggestion by Miika to scrap the thick paper gasket that you find in the reproduced gasket set and make new ones using very thin oil-paper or semitransparent drawing paper, in this case pay attention to use pure cellulose semitransparent paper and you will reproduce it in the most similar way to the original. If the surfaces are in good condition no sealant is necessary.
To assemble, no need to heat the block or to cool down the liners, you have to simply insert the liner in the block gently pushing it with your hands.
In any case, to avoid any trouble, I suggest you to keep in mind all the procedure indicated in the workshop manual respecting also the torque indications.
Is possible to find both original (difficult) or reproduced liners, if you want to save some money you can also search for used liners to be re-bored but be careful to the condition. No issue for the pistons, you can find it original NOS, aftermarket NOS, reproduced with original specs or reproduced with modern technology, is only matter of money. No issue at all for the piston ring, for these I suggest you to choose good quality parts (see Goetze).
Kind regards

Giovanni
viiking
Posts: 9
Joined: 20 Aug 2020, 04:54

Re: Seized Flavia Engine

Unread post by viiking »

I had the block and pistons in solvents including WD40, diesel, automatic transmission fluid, hot water etc for many weeks and this did not separate the pistons or finally the liners. That is why I did what I did.

The engine had been siezed for 35 years so I expected a lot of damage. The liners were cemented together and no penetrating fluid would have helped. I tried heat and cold and vibration to try to

Here is a picture of the piston after I had to drill it from the liner. You can see the level of corrosion. The liner was no better.

The alternative to what I did was to throw the whole engine block away and get another one.

I have been working on engines of all levels of sophistication for 50 years so I realise what is not the correct process but in this case is the realistic one.
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Siezed piston after drilling out
Siezed piston after drilling out
gcarenini
Posts: 1496
Joined: 18 Jan 2011, 12:21

Re: Seized Flavia Engine

Unread post by gcarenini »

Dear Viiking,
seen the picture, I'm not a doctor but I define this work as therapeutic obstinacy ;-)
Bon courage....
LanciaFin
Posts: 139
Joined: 04 Dec 2011, 16:40

Re: Seized Flavia Engine

Unread post by LanciaFin »

Very well, now that we have seen the condition of pistons, it is quite clear that the liners were not salvageable. :o There was some corrosion on my liners as well, where the piston rings had been sitting for some 30 years. It didn't look so worrying at all, but even though the liners were bored +0.6mm, some point of pitting was still visible on some liner, fortunately near bottom dead center, so they don't have any practical effect.

I would have mig-welded - very carefully, not to cause the aluminum surfaces to distort by melting - some seams inside the liners near where they meet the blocks. The weld shrinks the liner a bit and probably the heat will also help burning away the carbon deposits, that have glued the liners on their place. This method works well on stubborn bearings, when a press is not possible to be used. But obviously your method did the job, which is what matters!

I'm sure your liners did have gaskets, they are just so thin that they initially may look like dirt. They are also very difficult to be removed from the aluminum without scratching it (chemical removers didn't do anything). Patience is the key here...

BR,
Miika
viiking
Posts: 9
Joined: 20 Aug 2020, 04:54

Re: Seized Flavia Engine

Unread post by viiking »

I haven't done much to the engine with this COVID thing restricting many courier services needed for parts.

I have an additional problem. I cannot remove the distributor. I have removed the drive pinion from the bush inside the engine, but the distributor is stuck solid. I have tried solvents, carburettor cleaner, heat, soft taps with a rubber mallet but it won't budge.

Inside the engine past the bush I can see the narrow drive called the "coupling drive shaft". It is thin and does not look like the exploded drive picture in the manual. Number 9. It is the size of a pencil, not thick like the diagram.

Any ideas on how I can remove the distributor?
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LanciaFin
Posts: 139
Joined: 04 Dec 2011, 16:40

Re: Seized Flavia Engine

Unread post by LanciaFin »

That can be an issue. It should just come out, but if badly corroded, it may not come out in one piece. In that case, you sure have noticed the availability of distributors here in viva-lancia?

I'd think that some kind of extractor tool needs to be fabricated, that puts a permanent pull on the distributor, then heat the engine blocks (bolted together to prevent distortion) to something like over 100°C (would need a big oven) and then apply some extreme cold on the distributor, trying to keep the pull on at the same time. Once it starts to move, penetrating oil may get better access between it and the block.

If it still doesn't move, then I'd count it as a loss. It has been a couple of years since my engine project, so I don't remember if it was possible to apply push from downside, after taking off the oil pump. The part you meant is probably nr 5 below, and if I recall correctly, it can be extracted out after removal of oil pump. Then the bottom of the distributor should be visible.

Hydraulic press would be better tool here, than a hammer, if you want to keep the chance having the distributor come out without breaking it.
[attachment=0]Gear.jpg[/attachment]
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Gear.jpg
Gear.jpg (15.77 KiB) Viewed 1944 times
viiking
Posts: 9
Joined: 20 Aug 2020, 04:54

Re: Seized Flavia Engine

Unread post by viiking »

So it is 2 months of heating and using penetrating oil including using a home made puller to try and remove the distributor. It is stuck permanently.

The distributor in any case is junk. I cut off the distributor shaft flush with the engine. What is left is the shaft and the outside body of the distributor where it fits into the engine. The long pencil shaped object I spoke about in the previous post is the distributor drive shaft. I have tried to drive this from the bottom of the engine but it is not moving. I was worried about hitting it too hard in case I crack the block somehow.

I will now try and drill through the shaft or maybe around the shaft to see if I can free up the bottom of the distributor which fits into the block. I ASSUME that the distributor just fits in a parallel sided round shaft, that is there is no "ledge" inside the block where the distributor sits. The parts manual does not show that detail. So what I mean is, if I drill straight down next to the shaft will it damage anything below? I will drill a few small holes next to each other until I get close to the outside of the seized part and see if I can make it come loose.

It is amazing that after all these years that the aluminium has managed to "grow" together.
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