Hi - what coil is suitable for 1973 1.3S Fulvia with standard points set up please? My current one is unmarked.
Many thanks
Ignition coil
Re: Ignition coil
Hi
original specification for a S2 indicated in parts catalog is Marelli BE 200 B (there is also an indication for a Marelli BES 200 A, but with a reference to a car 820.210?). Not sure if they still can be found.
But basically any traditional coil of the right size as was fitted in traditional ignition systems will do. They are more or less all the same. Unless you want some special features like "high voltage", cooled or the like, which is probably not very useful with the original ignition system of the Fulvia.
Marnix
original specification for a S2 indicated in parts catalog is Marelli BE 200 B (there is also an indication for a Marelli BES 200 A, but with a reference to a car 820.210?). Not sure if they still can be found.
But basically any traditional coil of the right size as was fitted in traditional ignition systems will do. They are more or less all the same. Unless you want some special features like "high voltage", cooled or the like, which is probably not very useful with the original ignition system of the Fulvia.
Marnix
Re: Ignition coil
Right.
The primary resistance should be 3.3 Ohm (between 3 Ohm and 3.5 Ohm).
On your Fulvia the coil is probably mounted not vertically but at an angle. It should be epoxy cooled. Not oil cooled. If you shake the coil next to your ear you can hear if there is oil inside. If so, it should be mounted vertically.
The resistance of 3.3 Ohm of the primary is a safety thing. It is there to limit the electric current through coil, points, contact switch, battery if the engine stalls with contact on and points closed. The value can also be achieved by using a coil with say 1,5 Ohm primary resistance and put a high power (> 25 watts) 1,8 Ohm resistor in series.
A so called "Blue Bosch" or "Blue Beru" coil is ok. I should still have a dozen or so Blue Beru's in stock.
The primary resistance should be 3.3 Ohm (between 3 Ohm and 3.5 Ohm).
On your Fulvia the coil is probably mounted not vertically but at an angle. It should be epoxy cooled. Not oil cooled. If you shake the coil next to your ear you can hear if there is oil inside. If so, it should be mounted vertically.
The resistance of 3.3 Ohm of the primary is a safety thing. It is there to limit the electric current through coil, points, contact switch, battery if the engine stalls with contact on and points closed. The value can also be achieved by using a coil with say 1,5 Ohm primary resistance and put a high power (> 25 watts) 1,8 Ohm resistor in series.
A so called "Blue Bosch" or "Blue Beru" coil is ok. I should still have a dozen or so Blue Beru's in stock.
Re: Ignition coil
Is there a different choice if a 123 ignition has been fitted?
thanks
thanks
Re: Ignition coil
Yes.
The Marelli distributor has 4 cams at exactly 90 degrees.
In the way the thing operates, there is first the dynamic advance, then the cams for triggering the spark (by opening the contact points).
The dynamic advance is done by centrifugal weights and 2 small springs.
Electric energy is stored in the coil by letting a current flow through the primary winding. When the contact points (or transistor) opens (triggered by the cam) the energy is released in the form of a very high voltage which lets the plugs spark.
The current is limited by the primary resistance of the coil which is 3,3 Ohm on the coils for the original Marelli distributor
The 123 has like most electronic distributors a disc with 4 magnets for triggering the spark. Magnets are NOT uniform. The trigger points are not at exactly 90 degrees. The electronics solves this with a phase locked loop. The phase locked loop makes sure the sparks occur at 90 degrees. The 123 has to turn at engine rpm of more than 560 (4 cylinder engines) to allow the phase locked loop to work with enough accuracy. It looses time doing the calculations. There is less time left to charge the coil. This means you need a coil with less primary resistance so it can charge the coil with a higher current. The Red Bosch or Red Beru is ok. These have a primary resistance of 1,5 Ohm
That is one of the disadvantages of an electronic distributor. Another disadvantage is the sequence of internal operation. Unlike the Marelli there is first the triggering by the magnets. Then the electronic circuitry of the phased locked loop. Then the calculations for the dynamic advance. The dynamic advance is inside the loop. It means the position of the rotor with respect to the contact in the cap is different for different rpm. At low rpm the rotor is to the side of the contact. When rpm increases it shifts to the other side. It multiplies wear of the contacts. It is necessary to change rotor and cap every 30.000 km. Best keep a spare set in the boot.
The instruction manual of the 123 says to use the led to set the timing. Remember that there is then an error because of the non-uniformity of the magnets. It is always necessary to check the setting with a stroboscope with a minimum rpm of 560 rpm, say higher than 600 rpm. And less than 1000 rpm (say less than 900 rpm) because the dynamic advance starts at 1000 rpm.
For the Fulvia engines timing is very important. It is a compact 4 cylinder with a short crankshaft with only 3 main bearings serving 4 con rods. Since the center bearing is very small I call it a crankshaft with 2,5 main bearings. If the ignition is too early the center bearing will suffer too much. When I disassemble an engine I can see from the center bearing how the ignition was set and the cars was driven.
Remember the HF's have hardened (nitrated) crankshafts. One tends to think this is to make sure any wear is on the bearings and not the crankshaft/ Sorry. This is not the case. The reason for nitrating is to make the crankshaft stiffer so it bends less. It distributes the load more evenly over the 3 bearings.
When I rebuild an engine I can have the crankshaft nitrated on request of the customer. The process is a bit different from the standard process. The nitrating by itself already reduces loss of energy a lot. There are a few more things one can do to reduce loss of energy. It also reduces fuel consumption. This is in my opinion more in line with reducing climate change than tuning the engine for more power.
The Marelli distributor has 4 cams at exactly 90 degrees.
In the way the thing operates, there is first the dynamic advance, then the cams for triggering the spark (by opening the contact points).
The dynamic advance is done by centrifugal weights and 2 small springs.
Electric energy is stored in the coil by letting a current flow through the primary winding. When the contact points (or transistor) opens (triggered by the cam) the energy is released in the form of a very high voltage which lets the plugs spark.
The current is limited by the primary resistance of the coil which is 3,3 Ohm on the coils for the original Marelli distributor
The 123 has like most electronic distributors a disc with 4 magnets for triggering the spark. Magnets are NOT uniform. The trigger points are not at exactly 90 degrees. The electronics solves this with a phase locked loop. The phase locked loop makes sure the sparks occur at 90 degrees. The 123 has to turn at engine rpm of more than 560 (4 cylinder engines) to allow the phase locked loop to work with enough accuracy. It looses time doing the calculations. There is less time left to charge the coil. This means you need a coil with less primary resistance so it can charge the coil with a higher current. The Red Bosch or Red Beru is ok. These have a primary resistance of 1,5 Ohm
That is one of the disadvantages of an electronic distributor. Another disadvantage is the sequence of internal operation. Unlike the Marelli there is first the triggering by the magnets. Then the electronic circuitry of the phased locked loop. Then the calculations for the dynamic advance. The dynamic advance is inside the loop. It means the position of the rotor with respect to the contact in the cap is different for different rpm. At low rpm the rotor is to the side of the contact. When rpm increases it shifts to the other side. It multiplies wear of the contacts. It is necessary to change rotor and cap every 30.000 km. Best keep a spare set in the boot.
The instruction manual of the 123 says to use the led to set the timing. Remember that there is then an error because of the non-uniformity of the magnets. It is always necessary to check the setting with a stroboscope with a minimum rpm of 560 rpm, say higher than 600 rpm. And less than 1000 rpm (say less than 900 rpm) because the dynamic advance starts at 1000 rpm.
For the Fulvia engines timing is very important. It is a compact 4 cylinder with a short crankshaft with only 3 main bearings serving 4 con rods. Since the center bearing is very small I call it a crankshaft with 2,5 main bearings. If the ignition is too early the center bearing will suffer too much. When I disassemble an engine I can see from the center bearing how the ignition was set and the cars was driven.
Remember the HF's have hardened (nitrated) crankshafts. One tends to think this is to make sure any wear is on the bearings and not the crankshaft/ Sorry. This is not the case. The reason for nitrating is to make the crankshaft stiffer so it bends less. It distributes the load more evenly over the 3 bearings.
When I rebuild an engine I can have the crankshaft nitrated on request of the customer. The process is a bit different from the standard process. The nitrating by itself already reduces loss of energy a lot. There are a few more things one can do to reduce loss of energy. It also reduces fuel consumption. This is in my opinion more in line with reducing climate change than tuning the engine for more power.
Re: Ignition coil
A very clear explanation. Since my 1,3s has been fitted with a 123 system, I will look for a Red coil.
Thank you Huib -
Pablo
Thank you Huib -
Pablo
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badbadchimp
- Posts: 6
- Joined: 05 Jul 2021, 17:32
Re: Ignition coil
Hi Huib -Huib wrote: ↑07 Sep 2021, 09:44 Right.
The primary resistance should be 3.3 Ohm (between 3 Ohm and 3.5 Ohm).
On your Fulvia the coil is probably mounted not vertically but at an angle. It should be epoxy cooled. Not oil cooled. If you shake the coil next to your ear you can hear if there is oil inside. If so, it should be mounted vertically.
The resistance of 3.3 Ohm of the primary is a safety thing. It is there to limit the electric current through coil, points, contact switch, battery if the engine stalls with contact on and points closed. The value can also be achieved by using a coil with say 1,5 Ohm primary resistance and put a high power (> 25 watts) 1,8 Ohm resistor in series.
A so called "Blue Bosch" or "Blue Beru" coil is ok. I should still have a dozen or so Blue Beru's in stock.
I am thinking about replacing my Blue Bosch 12V on my Fulva 1.3 S1 with standard/original ignition (NOT 123) but the Bosch is very hard to come by. The engine is having trouble starting in the cold and is stumbling and sputtering once warmed up at low revs, so I'd like to eliminate the possibility of a faulty coil. Do you have a model number recommendation to replace the Bosch. I see a number of different "Blue Berus" that are 12V and between 3-3.5 Ohm resistance but I don't know if any will do or if it should be a specific model. My Bosch is mounted vertically, so I presume it's oil filled. I'd like to just get an identical unit and slide it into the mounting bracket but I guess any type will do. Perhaps this is adequate:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007W ... BH3P&psc=1
Many thanks for your thoughts.
Jesse
Re: Ignition coil
Hi Jesse,
The Beru one in the link looks ok. Made in Germany. Good. I would buy two and keep one in stock.
The blue Bosch is epoxy cooled as far as I know. It is definitely not the original one. Original would be Marelli or Klitz.
Oil cooled ones have to be mounted upright. Epoxy cooled ones can be mounted in any position. The design of the engine bay is from early sixties. The mounting was designed for oil cooled coils. The mounting changed on the series 2 in 1970. At that time the era of the oil cooled one was already long ago. Long enough to no longer have allow for oil cooled ones from an old stock.
Did you change the condenser? Good practice is to change it every two years.
Plugs. If you use standard plugs like NGK BPR7ES check the gap. The gap should be 0,6mm. This is critical. Out of the box it is too much. The BPR7EIX Iridium version is ok out of the box. The gap is more than 0,6mm but due to the very sharp point that is no problem.
The Beru one in the link looks ok. Made in Germany. Good. I would buy two and keep one in stock.
The blue Bosch is epoxy cooled as far as I know. It is definitely not the original one. Original would be Marelli or Klitz.
Oil cooled ones have to be mounted upright. Epoxy cooled ones can be mounted in any position. The design of the engine bay is from early sixties. The mounting was designed for oil cooled coils. The mounting changed on the series 2 in 1970. At that time the era of the oil cooled one was already long ago. Long enough to no longer have allow for oil cooled ones from an old stock.
Did you change the condenser? Good practice is to change it every two years.
Plugs. If you use standard plugs like NGK BPR7ES check the gap. The gap should be 0,6mm. This is critical. Out of the box it is too much. The BPR7EIX Iridium version is ok out of the box. The gap is more than 0,6mm but due to the very sharp point that is no problem.
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badbadchimp
- Posts: 6
- Joined: 05 Jul 2021, 17:32
Re: Ignition coil
Yes, I am following your instructions from earlier posts about the spark plugs. I am going to give the BPR7EIX a try (I currently have E3 plugs in there) and will leave them at the factory gap of 0.8mm. I will swap out the condenser, for sure, but wanted to try fixes one-by-one to see where the original problem might be occurring. It could wind up being a jetting or tuning issue on my Dellortos, though the fact that the car runs smoothly for long periods of time until suddenly it does not suggests to me that it has to do with ignition somehow. So I'll start with the coil, then change the condenser and if the problem persists maybe move on to the distributor and rotor and points and then, if all that fails, I guess I'll have to disassemble the carbs and check the jettings again.
I really appreciate your advise. Dankjewel!
Jesse
I really appreciate your advise. Dankjewel!
Jesse
Re: Ignition coil
Dellorto's are very sensitive to fuel pressure. Early Solexes need 0,3 bar which is the pressure the original fuel pumps deliver. From the Rallye 1.3S the carbs need 0,2 bar. They are fitted with a pressure regulator. Current aftermarket fuel pumps deliver 0,4 bar. The Dellorto DHLB35 needs a pressure which is closer to 0,1 bar than to 0,2 bar.