Hello guys,
new challenge here. I'm refurbishing my S1 front hubs (but I'm guessing rear will also make me struggle) and I cannot get the bearing nut off. I do have the correct tool, and I did use plenty of penetrant oil for a few days, but they just don't move. I've tried with a very long breaking bar and with a powerful impact wrench but no luck so far. To remove the nuts that hold the half shaft on the hub I had to cut/drill them off, but that could be done without damaging the threads on the half shaft. For the wheel bearing retaining nut is harder because I may ruin the thread on the hub if I attempt to cut the nut. Do You have any suggestion? I have tried to heat them up, but not all the way to cherry red, another option could maybe be MIG welding a bed inside the nut to make it shrink? I've done it to remove bearings in the past, but I'm not sure it would work in this case.
Any help is welcome!
thanks
luca
Front wheel bearing nut removal
Re: Front wheel bearing nut removal
as you're finding out those things can really be tough to remove. i think you're doing the right things, but maybe a slight variation will help. for penetrating oil i find nothing works better than a 50/50 mix of acetone and automatic transmission fluid. light heating will help carry it into the threads. heating the nut will make it expand. maybe think of cooling it to contract it a bit. there are spray cans of coolant designed to cool electrical circuits that can be effective for this.
most important, be patient. many people get frustrated and ruin parts. perseverance will pay off.
maybe (hopefully) huib has a magic cure for you. i'm sure he's run into this before.
most important, be patient. many people get frustrated and ruin parts. perseverance will pay off.
maybe (hopefully) huib has a magic cure for you. i'm sure he's run into this before.
Re: Front wheel bearing nut removal
it's funny because I've taken the whole car apart with no drama at all, until I got stuck on hubs and flywheel pulley bolt (different story, similar mess) 
I've learned patiente pays off, and the last I want is ruin expensive parts!
I'll probably give it another shot today, it's been soaking on penetrating oil for a while, but I will also try with acetone and ATF. One of the issues there is the large diameter. Stiction gets a fairly long leverage! Next on my list is welding a bead inside the nut to make it shrink.
I've learned patiente pays off, and the last I want is ruin expensive parts!
I'll probably give it another shot today, it's been soaking on penetrating oil for a while, but I will also try with acetone and ATF. One of the issues there is the large diameter. Stiction gets a fairly long leverage! Next on my list is welding a bead inside the nut to make it shrink.
Re: Front wheel bearing nut removal
Aha. You are using the method once described in the Magazine of the Lancia Motor Club. You need 5 people, a 2 meter extension and half a day.
Persons 1 and 2: hold the table with the vice .
Person 3: keeps the tool in place.
Person 4: operates the two meter extension
Person 5 (you yourself): hits the tool on the head with a sledge hammer when person 4 pulls.
When I read it again in this time of Brexit, I wonder why the British joined the EU in the first place.
Here in the Netherlands we use a high power 3/4" impact tool at 11 bar with a 1/2"diameter hose and an impact puller ( the original Lancia one, piece of art). Takes everything apart in seconds. It helps to keep the whole thing attached to the 1000 kg called a car as long as possible. Even with rubber silent blocs, spring and sub frame rubbers between the hub / swivel and the body of the car it gives enough counter weight.
Apparently you have been driving on the wrong side of the road. Can you post a picture of what is in front of you???
Persons 1 and 2: hold the table with the vice .
Person 3: keeps the tool in place.
Person 4: operates the two meter extension
Person 5 (you yourself): hits the tool on the head with a sledge hammer when person 4 pulls.
When I read it again in this time of Brexit, I wonder why the British joined the EU in the first place.
Here in the Netherlands we use a high power 3/4" impact tool at 11 bar with a 1/2"diameter hose and an impact puller ( the original Lancia one, piece of art). Takes everything apart in seconds. It helps to keep the whole thing attached to the 1000 kg called a car as long as possible. Even with rubber silent blocs, spring and sub frame rubbers between the hub / swivel and the body of the car it gives enough counter weight.
Apparently you have been driving on the wrong side of the road. Can you post a picture of what is in front of you???
Re: Front wheel bearing nut removal
Hi Huib,
I don't have the hubs with me right now, but I'm referring to the inner bearing wheel nut. The one that it's on the inside of the hub facing the differential, my bearings have lots of play. You cannot get to it when the car is on the road. Maybe one could remove halfshaft, brake caliper and steering arm, twist the hub 90 degrees and unscrew it?
Looks like I need to find a place with a 3/4 impact wrench and give it a go.
I don't have the hubs with me right now, but I'm referring to the inner bearing wheel nut. The one that it's on the inside of the hub facing the differential, my bearings have lots of play. You cannot get to it when the car is on the road. Maybe one could remove halfshaft, brake caliper and steering arm, twist the hub 90 degrees and unscrew it?
Looks like I need to find a place with a 3/4 impact wrench and give it a go.
Re: Front wheel bearing nut removal
[quote=Huib post_id=1424422 time=1602760671 user_id=167]
Aha. You are using the method once described in the Magazine of the Lancia Motor Club. You need 5 people, a 2 meter extension and half a day.
Persons 1 and 2: hold the table with the vice .
Person 3: keeps the tool in place.
Person 4: operates the two meter extension
Person 5 (you yourself): hits the tool on the head with a sledge hammer when person 4 pulls.
When I read it again in this time of Brexit, I wonder why the British joined the EU in the first place.
Here in the Netherlands we use a high power 3/4" impact tool at 11 bar with a 1/2"diameter hose and an impact puller ( the original Lancia one, piece of art). Takes everything apart in seconds. It helps to keep the whole thing attached to the 1000 kg called a car as long as possible. Even with rubber silent blocs, spring and sub frame rubbers between the hub / swivel and the body of the car it gives enough counter weight.
Apparently you have been driving on the wrong side of the road. Can you post a picture of what is in front of you???
[/quote]
3/4 impact at 11 bar! no wonder it only takes seconds to come apart. i'm going to store that information for later use.
Aha. You are using the method once described in the Magazine of the Lancia Motor Club. You need 5 people, a 2 meter extension and half a day.
Persons 1 and 2: hold the table with the vice .
Person 3: keeps the tool in place.
Person 4: operates the two meter extension
Person 5 (you yourself): hits the tool on the head with a sledge hammer when person 4 pulls.
When I read it again in this time of Brexit, I wonder why the British joined the EU in the first place.
Here in the Netherlands we use a high power 3/4" impact tool at 11 bar with a 1/2"diameter hose and an impact puller ( the original Lancia one, piece of art). Takes everything apart in seconds. It helps to keep the whole thing attached to the 1000 kg called a car as long as possible. Even with rubber silent blocs, spring and sub frame rubbers between the hub / swivel and the body of the car it gives enough counter weight.
Apparently you have been driving on the wrong side of the road. Can you post a picture of what is in front of you???
[/quote]
3/4 impact at 11 bar! no wonder it only takes seconds to come apart. i'm going to store that information for later use.
Re: Front wheel bearing nut removal
The wheel bearings are so called double row angular contact ball bearings. A single row angular contact ball bearing can take radial forces and axial forces but only in one direction. If you combine two of those with the other one taking the axial forces from the other direction you have an excellent wheel bearing. If, if you can put more steel balls in than in a normal double row bearing. With a normal one you have an outer ring with two races and an inner ring with two races. Put the steel balls to one side in the outer ring. Put in the inner ring. Distribute the balls evenly. Put in the cages from the sides and off you go. Unfortunately not enough for Flavia and Fulvia. You need 26 balls, 13 per race. The only way to do this is to split the inner ring. Put the two cages inside the outer ring. Put 13 balls in each case. Put in the two half inner rings from each side. Torque the nut on the half axle very well so that the two half inner rings become one inner ring under all circumstances. That means any temperature and any cornering force at any speed and weight. For teh Flavia and Fulvia the torque is specified at 30 Kgm, which I consider a minimum value. Anything less and the inner half rings of the bearing start to move sooner or later. The bearing will overheat melting steel in and around it and self destruct.
If you have a hub where one bearing ever over heated only half, changes are that you will not get the wobbling of the disc under 30 micron and there will be other vibrations as well. Braking power and handling will suffer. Much of the high tech of Lancia's is in the machining of good quality steel and aluminium with micrometer precision.
Although it is possible to take to disassemble the wheel suspension within minutes we usually take more care. We put the car on 4 axle stands and feel the movements of the wheels carefully. Take off the wheel and bolt the tool holding the hub still and in place to the 4 studs. The tool is a sort of heavy steel triangle bolted to the hub and resting on the ground. On series 1 take off the outer nut. This one does not have to be torqued at 30 Kgm as it is not keeping the bearing in place but keeping the lock ring from falling off. Take off the lock ring and pin. Look at the inner axle nut. Try to get a feel if it was torques correctly before. If the nuts are butchered, the right tools were not available during an earlier job. It implies that the nuts were not properly torqued.
Once the nuts are off, pull off the hub using an impact puller. This is sometimes difficult. It usually means the part of the hub that goes inside the wheel bearing over heated, melted and deformed.
Once the hub is off, the CVJ is loose in the bearing. Either take off the drive shaft or the swivel to remove the ring holding the bearing in the swivel. I prefer to take off the swivel and clamp it in a big vice bolted to a heavy steel table. Remove the locking spring.
To press the bearing out of the swivel at the front or out of the hub at the rear it is a good idea to make a tool which you can insert in the bearing and clamp the two half inner rings together. If you don''t use a tool you may damage the bearing when pressing it out.
@piggdekk
If there is play on the wheel bearing with the axle nuts properly torqued you have a problem. If there is a play with the nuts off, that is normal.
If you have a hub where one bearing ever over heated only half, changes are that you will not get the wobbling of the disc under 30 micron and there will be other vibrations as well. Braking power and handling will suffer. Much of the high tech of Lancia's is in the machining of good quality steel and aluminium with micrometer precision.
Although it is possible to take to disassemble the wheel suspension within minutes we usually take more care. We put the car on 4 axle stands and feel the movements of the wheels carefully. Take off the wheel and bolt the tool holding the hub still and in place to the 4 studs. The tool is a sort of heavy steel triangle bolted to the hub and resting on the ground. On series 1 take off the outer nut. This one does not have to be torqued at 30 Kgm as it is not keeping the bearing in place but keeping the lock ring from falling off. Take off the lock ring and pin. Look at the inner axle nut. Try to get a feel if it was torques correctly before. If the nuts are butchered, the right tools were not available during an earlier job. It implies that the nuts were not properly torqued.
Once the nuts are off, pull off the hub using an impact puller. This is sometimes difficult. It usually means the part of the hub that goes inside the wheel bearing over heated, melted and deformed.
Once the hub is off, the CVJ is loose in the bearing. Either take off the drive shaft or the swivel to remove the ring holding the bearing in the swivel. I prefer to take off the swivel and clamp it in a big vice bolted to a heavy steel table. Remove the locking spring.
To press the bearing out of the swivel at the front or out of the hub at the rear it is a good idea to make a tool which you can insert in the bearing and clamp the two half inner rings together. If you don''t use a tool you may damage the bearing when pressing it out.
@piggdekk
If there is play on the wheel bearing with the axle nuts properly torqued you have a problem. If there is a play with the nuts off, that is normal.
Re: Front wheel bearing nut removal
Thanks Huib,
I finally got the bearings nuts off both upfront and rear. Santa came early and a large battery powered impulse wrench did the trick. A good friend of mine has his workshop nearby my place, and his 1/2 inch impact gun powered by compressed air couldn't make it. This brushless tools are just amazing.
I finally understand how this bearing work, and I see what You mean with the inner play. It's the nut on the shaft that keeps the 2 inner racers compressed, so whitout it it's normal that they will have play. I had never seen a bearing like that. I did find some rust in one of the bearings, so I'm afraid I may need to change some of them anyway, but I will check them out carefully and repack with grease if possible. At 170 Euros/each it's worth a try.
I was surprised that despite the very refined Lancia engineering there is no seal to protect the bearings except for the guard on the on beraing itself that does what it can, but maybe not too much.
On a side note: to make sure I could clean and service the hubs I have removed the discs, and found again copper plated nuts. They have lasted 60 years, no problem and can still be removed easily. The part of the bolt that faced the elements does not look as good though. Do You know if/where copper plated bolt can be found? I'd love to use them on the rebuild.
luca
I finally got the bearings nuts off both upfront and rear. Santa came early and a large battery powered impulse wrench did the trick. A good friend of mine has his workshop nearby my place, and his 1/2 inch impact gun powered by compressed air couldn't make it. This brushless tools are just amazing.
I finally understand how this bearing work, and I see what You mean with the inner play. It's the nut on the shaft that keeps the 2 inner racers compressed, so whitout it it's normal that they will have play. I had never seen a bearing like that. I did find some rust in one of the bearings, so I'm afraid I may need to change some of them anyway, but I will check them out carefully and repack with grease if possible. At 170 Euros/each it's worth a try.
I was surprised that despite the very refined Lancia engineering there is no seal to protect the bearings except for the guard on the on beraing itself that does what it can, but maybe not too much.
On a side note: to make sure I could clean and service the hubs I have removed the discs, and found again copper plated nuts. They have lasted 60 years, no problem and can still be removed easily. The part of the bolt that faced the elements does not look as good though. Do You know if/where copper plated bolt can be found? I'd love to use them on the rebuild.
luca