I'm looking to put my 1600 HF (S2 Lusso) back on the road this year. The steering box will need to be put back but before I do I'm thinking of changing from using SAE/GX 90 oil (as per the S2 Instruction Book) to (Penrite) steering box lube to eliminate the leaking oil when using SAE/GX 90 unless it is a type of steering box designed for use with oil which can flow through holes, grooves and channels. If it is greased, might parts such as the bush and shaft for the worm wheel which carries the drop arm not get lubricated and wear out - anyone know if this would be the case with a Fulvia steering box
Has anyonelse used a steering box lube in place of oil and if so what affect does it have on steering feel, etc.
Thanks.
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Steering box - replace SAE 90 oil with steering lube (Penrite)
Re: Steering box - replace SAE 90 oil with steering lube (Penrite)
i have a couple of thoughts regarding this. i'm currently using this pennrite lube in mine due to a persistent leak. it does a very good job, no reduction in feel or increase in effort as far as i can tell. it's a little difficult to get it in the box as it's so thick. i used a gear lube pump over several sessions (to let it settle) and it hasn't leaked a drop since i put it in. this lube is really a pourable grease and will fill any voids with time. i don't know if the fulvia box has any passages too small for this lube to get into, but i have my doubts. many people swear by this lube, and i haven't heard of any damage due to using it. for me, i figured thick lube is better than no lube.
if or when i ever remove the subframe and get easy access to it i'll most likely take the box out, disassemble and clean it, and put it back with regular (or possibly synthetic) 90 wt. i'd look to see if a double lip seal could be fitted as well.
if it leaks again, i'll just go back to the pennrite.
if or when i ever remove the subframe and get easy access to it i'll most likely take the box out, disassemble and clean it, and put it back with regular (or possibly synthetic) 90 wt. i'd look to see if a double lip seal could be fitted as well.
if it leaks again, i'll just go back to the pennrite.
Re: Steering box - replace SAE 90 oil with steering lube (Penrite)
Thanks for your informative reply bmarier.
Can I ask the make / model number of the gear lube pump you use as the Penrite is so thick I'll like to use a pump that is suitable?
Thanks :)
Can I ask the make / model number of the gear lube pump you use as the Penrite is so thick I'll like to use a pump that is suitable?
Thanks :)
Re: Steering box - replace SAE 90 oil with steering lube (Penrite)
i used a pump like this one:
https://www.amazon.com/attwood-11891D7- ... B00A3I3AZQ
if that link stops working, just google gear lube pump. you'll get a ton of options. a simple, cheap plastic pump works just fine for this. the only problem is, the penrite container threads don't match the pump so it's a little fiddly to use. a longer output hose would be better suited for getting down to the steering box but i was able to do it as is.
https://www.amazon.com/attwood-11891D7- ... B00A3I3AZQ
if that link stops working, just google gear lube pump. you'll get a ton of options. a simple, cheap plastic pump works just fine for this. the only problem is, the penrite container threads don't match the pump so it's a little fiddly to use. a longer output hose would be better suited for getting down to the steering box but i was able to do it as is.
Re: Steering box - replace SAE 90 oil with steering lube (Penrite)
Another option might be to heat up the Penrite lube. I don't know what temperature it needs to become pourable. With a bit of luck it is a practical temperature.
You also want lubrication and rust protection in the needle bearing at the top inside the cover of the box and rust protection for the top of the vertical shaft which sits inside that bearing.
The oil is in the box for two reasons: lubrication and rust protection.
The get oil inside that top bearing air comes out through the small hole inside the the filler opening. That will only work if the stuff is liquid.
If heating is practical, I would also pre heat the steering box with the paint stripper. Another possibility is maybe put a grease nipple in the top of the box next to the adjust screw and nut.
Turn the steering wheel from left to right and v.v. very often when filling to distribute the stuff to the bearings of the worm shaft.
I would take the box out and overhaul it.
You also want lubrication and rust protection in the needle bearing at the top inside the cover of the box and rust protection for the top of the vertical shaft which sits inside that bearing.
The oil is in the box for two reasons: lubrication and rust protection.
The get oil inside that top bearing air comes out through the small hole inside the the filler opening. That will only work if the stuff is liquid.
If heating is practical, I would also pre heat the steering box with the paint stripper. Another possibility is maybe put a grease nipple in the top of the box next to the adjust screw and nut.
Turn the steering wheel from left to right and v.v. very often when filling to distribute the stuff to the bearings of the worm shaft.
I would take the box out and overhaul it.
Re: Steering box - replace SAE 90 oil with steering lube (Penrite)
Huib,
Thanks for your reply :D
I posted the same original question on the LMC forum - some members mention that some steering boxes are designed for use with oil which can flow through holes, grooves, channels and internal drillings to ensure the oil gets everywhere, particularly to the rubbing surfaces but are not sure if this applies to the Fulvia steering boxes.
I've listed the info below from the Steering Box Lube product sheet below and included the URL (the pdf file is too large to attach) if it helps.
Any additional thoughts / comments you might have appreciated.
The box is out of the car - do you have any advice on how to overhaul it?
Many thanks,
Paul.
This is the info regardinng Penrite Steering Box lube (https://www.penriteoil.com.au/assets/pi ... 20LUBE.pdf):
"Last updated: 13/12/2019 9:11 am
STEERING BOX LUBE
PRODUCT CODE SBL00045
PRODUCT BENEFITS
Penrite Steering Box Lube is an extreme pressure, NLGI 00, lithium based grease, blended with effective anti-wear, rust and oxidation inhibitors. It is a high viscosity, self-levelling grease that features non-corrosive extreme pressure (EP) additives to provide enhanced film strength protection.
APPLICATION
Penrite Steering Box Lube is suitable for veteran/vintage and some classic car steering boxes. It can also be used in some classic car and motorcycle gearboxes that require high viscosity lubrication or a self leveling grease such as Burman motorcycle gear boxes used in many older motorcycle brands such as AJS, BSA, Arial and others.
Penrite Steering Box Lube has a normal operating temperature range from -20º to 130º.
PRODUCT BENEFITS
Extends bearing and gear life by minimising wear and shock loads
Does not splash so maximises lubrication efficiency
Resists leakage even under heavily loaded conditions
Resists squeeze out
Good low and high temperature fluidity
Protects against rust and corrosion
Good water resistance
Suitable to use with yellow metal
INDUSTRY & MANUFACTURER'S SPECIFICATIONS
NLGI 00
TYPICAL DATA
Colour: Light Brown
NLGI Grade: 00
Soap Type: Lithium
Density at 15°C, kg/L: 0.9
Copper Corrosion Test: 1a
Base Oil Viscosity: ISO 150
Operating Temperature Range °C -20° to +130°
Appearance: Smooth
Timkin OK Load, kg: 18
Drop Point, °C: 170"
Thanks for your reply :D
I posted the same original question on the LMC forum - some members mention that some steering boxes are designed for use with oil which can flow through holes, grooves, channels and internal drillings to ensure the oil gets everywhere, particularly to the rubbing surfaces but are not sure if this applies to the Fulvia steering boxes.
I've listed the info below from the Steering Box Lube product sheet below and included the URL (the pdf file is too large to attach) if it helps.
Any additional thoughts / comments you might have appreciated.
The box is out of the car - do you have any advice on how to overhaul it?
Many thanks,
Paul.
This is the info regardinng Penrite Steering Box lube (https://www.penriteoil.com.au/assets/pi ... 20LUBE.pdf):
"Last updated: 13/12/2019 9:11 am
STEERING BOX LUBE
PRODUCT CODE SBL00045
PRODUCT BENEFITS
Penrite Steering Box Lube is an extreme pressure, NLGI 00, lithium based grease, blended with effective anti-wear, rust and oxidation inhibitors. It is a high viscosity, self-levelling grease that features non-corrosive extreme pressure (EP) additives to provide enhanced film strength protection.
APPLICATION
Penrite Steering Box Lube is suitable for veteran/vintage and some classic car steering boxes. It can also be used in some classic car and motorcycle gearboxes that require high viscosity lubrication or a self leveling grease such as Burman motorcycle gear boxes used in many older motorcycle brands such as AJS, BSA, Arial and others.
Penrite Steering Box Lube has a normal operating temperature range from -20º to 130º.
PRODUCT BENEFITS
Extends bearing and gear life by minimising wear and shock loads
Does not splash so maximises lubrication efficiency
Resists leakage even under heavily loaded conditions
Resists squeeze out
Good low and high temperature fluidity
Protects against rust and corrosion
Good water resistance
Suitable to use with yellow metal
INDUSTRY & MANUFACTURER'S SPECIFICATIONS
NLGI 00
TYPICAL DATA
Colour: Light Brown
NLGI Grade: 00
Soap Type: Lithium
Density at 15°C, kg/L: 0.9
Copper Corrosion Test: 1a
Base Oil Viscosity: ISO 150
Operating Temperature Range °C -20° to +130°
Appearance: Smooth
Timkin OK Load, kg: 18
Drop Point, °C: 170"
Re: Steering box - replace SAE 90 oil with steering lube (Penrite)
Paul
If the thing is out of the car I would overhaul it (if it is in the car, I would take it out and overhaul it).
I am not sure if the word overhaul is well defined. For some it may have the meaning "restore to new", for others its meaning may be closer to "pretty good service". Some parts are no longer available. If those are damaged, you are out of luck.
With the 1600 steering box I would be very careful. Less turns of the steering wheel means higher forces on worm and roller according to my good old buddy Archimedes. Also the larger scrub radius resulting from the 6J rims increases the forces. So does the way a 1600 is often driven.
Let's continue to use the word overhaul. It is some time ago I did it myself. My much younger colleague Wainer Mariuzzo does the steering boxes now. Wainer states: "If it is Lancia, it has to feel good and then it is good". He was born in Torino in 72. Started to work with Lancia in 87 during the week and with the Giaveno Race and Rally team during the weekend. He clearly has an advantage over me and does a better job than I ever did.
I used an extra heavy 3/4" air gun with 14 mm air hose and the compressor set to 11 bar to take the big nut at the bottom and the Pitman arm off. Wainer uses a 1 meter extension to turn the sockets.
Take off the top. Take out the 4 M8 bolts. Turn the adjust screw cw and the cover will come off.
Leave the thing upside down till all oil has come out.
Undo the big nut at the bottom. It needs a 35 mm socket. The nut on the idle box needs 36 mm. Or the other way around. So buy 35 and 36 mm (impact) sockets. And buy a Russian Pittman arm puller. One that uncle Joe Stalin would have been proud of. And an impact socket that fits the tool
Don't take the nut off!!!! Leave it on for a few turns!!! Put the Pitman arm in the vice. Install the puller. Pull off the arm. Or PULL OFF the arm. Sometimes is easy. Most of the times you need a good conversation with the thing. Keep tools like 2 kg hammers, curses and above all patience within reach.
TAke out the shaft with the roller. Check for play on the roller shaft.
Take of the rear cover. CAREFUL. The gasket doubles as a collection of shims, some of them paper. Don't wash those!!!
Take out worm and bearing cages with balls. I leave the bearing race at the front in place. Note that there are shims under that race. I have never found instructions how to shim the worm. I bet it is difficult to align the worm in such a way that its angle at the center has the same angle as the roller. So, I leave the bearing at the front and the shims under it in place.
Inspect and clean everything. Polish surfaces where balls run and seals sit. If necessary replace needle bearings. Replace seals. Double lip seals are a good idea but note that the outer lip is a dust seal, not an oil seal. Interestingly the leakage is between worm shaft and seal. It is not at the bottom seal. Assemble the worm part very carefully. It should not have any play but it should not need too much force to turn. This is where the feeling is important. There must be instructions somewhere how to measure the force but I have never found them. Any play will be bad for the the seal and it will also turn up multiplied at the wheels. The other way around any forces on the wheels arrive multiplied on the parts in the steering box. If there is any play the resulting "hammering" will destroy parts. I test the worm by turning it with my fingers AND by turning a steering wheel with shaft and linkage which I slide onto the worm.
I wrote above from home away from my workshop. It is not complete. The sequence may be different. It is just to give you an idea.
If the thing is out of the car I would overhaul it (if it is in the car, I would take it out and overhaul it).
I am not sure if the word overhaul is well defined. For some it may have the meaning "restore to new", for others its meaning may be closer to "pretty good service". Some parts are no longer available. If those are damaged, you are out of luck.
With the 1600 steering box I would be very careful. Less turns of the steering wheel means higher forces on worm and roller according to my good old buddy Archimedes. Also the larger scrub radius resulting from the 6J rims increases the forces. So does the way a 1600 is often driven.
Let's continue to use the word overhaul. It is some time ago I did it myself. My much younger colleague Wainer Mariuzzo does the steering boxes now. Wainer states: "If it is Lancia, it has to feel good and then it is good". He was born in Torino in 72. Started to work with Lancia in 87 during the week and with the Giaveno Race and Rally team during the weekend. He clearly has an advantage over me and does a better job than I ever did.
I used an extra heavy 3/4" air gun with 14 mm air hose and the compressor set to 11 bar to take the big nut at the bottom and the Pitman arm off. Wainer uses a 1 meter extension to turn the sockets.
Take off the top. Take out the 4 M8 bolts. Turn the adjust screw cw and the cover will come off.
Leave the thing upside down till all oil has come out.
Undo the big nut at the bottom. It needs a 35 mm socket. The nut on the idle box needs 36 mm. Or the other way around. So buy 35 and 36 mm (impact) sockets. And buy a Russian Pittman arm puller. One that uncle Joe Stalin would have been proud of. And an impact socket that fits the tool
Don't take the nut off!!!! Leave it on for a few turns!!! Put the Pitman arm in the vice. Install the puller. Pull off the arm. Or PULL OFF the arm. Sometimes is easy. Most of the times you need a good conversation with the thing. Keep tools like 2 kg hammers, curses and above all patience within reach.
TAke out the shaft with the roller. Check for play on the roller shaft.
Take of the rear cover. CAREFUL. The gasket doubles as a collection of shims, some of them paper. Don't wash those!!!
Take out worm and bearing cages with balls. I leave the bearing race at the front in place. Note that there are shims under that race. I have never found instructions how to shim the worm. I bet it is difficult to align the worm in such a way that its angle at the center has the same angle as the roller. So, I leave the bearing at the front and the shims under it in place.
Inspect and clean everything. Polish surfaces where balls run and seals sit. If necessary replace needle bearings. Replace seals. Double lip seals are a good idea but note that the outer lip is a dust seal, not an oil seal. Interestingly the leakage is between worm shaft and seal. It is not at the bottom seal. Assemble the worm part very carefully. It should not have any play but it should not need too much force to turn. This is where the feeling is important. There must be instructions somewhere how to measure the force but I have never found them. Any play will be bad for the the seal and it will also turn up multiplied at the wheels. The other way around any forces on the wheels arrive multiplied on the parts in the steering box. If there is any play the resulting "hammering" will destroy parts. I test the worm by turning it with my fingers AND by turning a steering wheel with shaft and linkage which I slide onto the worm.
I wrote above from home away from my workshop. It is not complete. The sequence may be different. It is just to give you an idea.