Hi,
Just wanted to check what the correct flywheel position is to line up with the 1/4 mark on the flywheel housing.
With contact finger pointing to the oil filter: 8 > 1/4 is TDC and the position from where your time the distributor position with the timing bulb, am I correct or should it be 0 > 1/4?
Cheers, Thomas
Ignition timing point
Re: Ignition timing point
there may be differences between series but i thought the 0 marked tdc.
Re: Ignition timing point
but, if you're doing static timing with a test light, the 8 mark is the one to use.
Re: Ignition timing point
Thanks, static timing it is. My car is a series 2/3.
Re: Ignition timing point
Entirely correct. The good old days with the contact breaker.
May I add some information for Fulvisti who are timing a distributor with electronic advance such as the 123 ?
Triggering is by 4 magnets which are mounted at exactly 90 degrees on the so called magnet disc. The magnetic fields of the magnets are however not uniform. A phase locked loop is included in the electronics to make sure the sparks occur at 90 degree intervals. To provide the electronics with enough input the engine has to turn at 560 rpm minimum.
The 123 distributor is initially timed by turning the housing ccw till the green led turns on. This is static on 1 cylinder. If the thing starts turning the error can be several degrees and it usually is.
Checking the timing with a stroboscope is necessary. The dynamic advance for the 1100, 1200 and 1300 cc engines starts at 1000 rpm. You have to set the timing at an idle rpm between 560 and 1000, say 700 to 800 rpm.
Checking the timing on the 1600 engines is a bit more tricky. Dynamic advance starts at 800 rpm (123 curve 3). The timing should be set at an idle between 560 and 800 rpm, say 660 to 700 rpm.
May I add some information for Fulvisti who are timing a distributor with electronic advance such as the 123 ?
Triggering is by 4 magnets which are mounted at exactly 90 degrees on the so called magnet disc. The magnetic fields of the magnets are however not uniform. A phase locked loop is included in the electronics to make sure the sparks occur at 90 degree intervals. To provide the electronics with enough input the engine has to turn at 560 rpm minimum.
The 123 distributor is initially timed by turning the housing ccw till the green led turns on. This is static on 1 cylinder. If the thing starts turning the error can be several degrees and it usually is.
Checking the timing with a stroboscope is necessary. The dynamic advance for the 1100, 1200 and 1300 cc engines starts at 1000 rpm. You have to set the timing at an idle rpm between 560 and 1000, say 700 to 800 rpm.
Checking the timing on the 1600 engines is a bit more tricky. Dynamic advance starts at 800 rpm (123 curve 3). The timing should be set at an idle between 560 and 800 rpm, say 660 to 700 rpm.
Re: Ignition timing point
thanks Huib,
more good information to have.
more good information to have.
-
lancia7550
- Posts: 74
- Joined: 10 Nov 2012, 22:26
Re: Ignition timing point
Hi Huib, do you prefer simply setting the timing to the factory manual or do you advance it a little. This seems to be suggested in a lot of forum topics.
Also, what is you opinion of the 123 units? I have an original unit converted to electronic that works well, but I don't really trust that the mechanical advance still does exactly what it was supposed to when new.
Also, what is you opinion of the 123 units? I have an original unit converted to electronic that works well, but I don't really trust that the mechanical advance still does exactly what it was supposed to when new.
Re: Ignition timing point
i have a couple of thoughts about that. the 123 distributor is a very high quality device. once installed you should never have timing issues again. only the changing of the consumables is needed and those are much cheaper and easier to find than the original marelli. (talking 1300 here, i don't have experience with the 1600 parts)
that said, the original distributor if cared for properly will give perfectly acceptable performance. the electronic unit replacing the points is generally a very reliable method and in my opinion a big upgrade from points.
it's up to you to decide if a couple of more degrees of advance is beneficial, if pinking occurs though, put it back. i think you may get a little better acceleration with more advance, and i've done it with some of my vehicles. when i was a youngster i would always time by ear.
the fulvia though, with a fairly high state of tune from the factory is pretty well optimized for performance. i run mine at factory settings with a hall effect sensor replacing the points. i also have a diagnostic scope to look at the ignition patterns and find them to be very good.
if the mechanical advance mechanism is moving freely, and the springs are intact, i think you'd be surprised how close to the factory advance curve your ignition will be. if the springs are weak you will achieve full advance sooner. this isn't necessarily a bad thing as evidence suggests modern fuels can use a little more advance at lower rpm ranges.
maybe sometime i will change to the 123 distributor, but for now i'm satisfied with the setup as is. but my car has many more important needs than ignition. if my car was already in perfect condition my priorities would be different.
that said, the original distributor if cared for properly will give perfectly acceptable performance. the electronic unit replacing the points is generally a very reliable method and in my opinion a big upgrade from points.
it's up to you to decide if a couple of more degrees of advance is beneficial, if pinking occurs though, put it back. i think you may get a little better acceleration with more advance, and i've done it with some of my vehicles. when i was a youngster i would always time by ear.
the fulvia though, with a fairly high state of tune from the factory is pretty well optimized for performance. i run mine at factory settings with a hall effect sensor replacing the points. i also have a diagnostic scope to look at the ignition patterns and find them to be very good.
if the mechanical advance mechanism is moving freely, and the springs are intact, i think you'd be surprised how close to the factory advance curve your ignition will be. if the springs are weak you will achieve full advance sooner. this isn't necessarily a bad thing as evidence suggests modern fuels can use a little more advance at lower rpm ranges.
maybe sometime i will change to the 123 distributor, but for now i'm satisfied with the setup as is. but my car has many more important needs than ignition. if my car was already in perfect condition my priorities would be different.
Re: Ignition timing point
I agree with bmarler. The original distributor if in order is perfectly capable of doing a good job. Indeed, you will be surprised how accurate the timing curve is. If new original distributors were available I would replace any worn distributor by an original distributor. Good quality and well adjusted contact points last very long if the condenser is replaced every two years. With modern electronic dwell angle meters checking the gap is quick and easy. If the dwell angle is around 57 degrees, it is ok.
I use plugs with built in resistor to reduce peak current and suppress radio interference at the same time. Also I use plug cables with a wire wound core of stainless steel resistance wire. The resistance and inductance reduce peak currents even more and trade high peak current for longer duration of the spark.
When using normal plugs like NGK BPR7ES the Fulvia is very sensitive to the gap. Set the gap to 0.6mm. When the plugs are new the gap is more than 0.6 mm. Iridium plugs like BPR7EIX I leave at the factory set gap. These plugs last very long.
If the fuel air ratio is correct, the mixture burns easily. Check if any attempt to “improve” ignition is not an attempt to mask bad mixture. After 50 years corrosion and wear of the carburetors is more likely than wear on the distributor.
Having said that, the 123 dizzy is an excellent distributor. Remember to select the right curve. DO NOT install the vacuum version. Even if you do not connect it to the vacuum it will react to going up and down the mountain. I install the TUNE only if there is VERY GOOD reason. The factory provided curves are good and cover many types of fuel under many atmospheric conditions and altitudes. Put the original dizzy in the boot.
I set the fixed advance to factory spec to within a degree. Due to the narrow V construction of the engine the crankshaft is short and has only three main bearings. There is no room for a wide bearing in the center. The center bearing is very narrow wile it serves two con rods in near position and 2 in second position.
If the mixture is ignited earlier it means that combustion is finished earlier. It is a long time ago I rode bicycles. I do remember though it is important to apply power to the pedals at the right moment to arrive at the destination without overtiring myself and without destroying the crank. If the combustion is finished early the load on the crankshaft bearings (main and con rod) increases rapidly. Also the load increases on the head, head bolts, piston rings, cylinder walls etc. The center bearing of the crankshaft will be on the copper very quickly.
I learn a lot from the Fulvia (and Flavia).
Watch the following movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPXkUXXFoCw
The difference between the tigers and the gibbon is that the tigers have their weight under the pelvis. The gibbon has its weight over the pelvis. The latter is unstable but infinitely more flexible. It requires quite a bit of computing power to coordinate its movements. It is not only the brain power, every cell, every tissue, every bone has its function in the distributed computing process. The bones look very much like mechanical function generators as for instance found in the Kugelfischer injection control unit.
The Fulvia (and Flavia) have the weight (at the front) on the upper wishbone thus on top of the swivel. It is an unstable situation like with the gibbon. A mechanical computer keeps it stable. The aluminium towers, double wishbones, swivels, cross members control the position of the wheels with computer precision. The paleontologist says the bones determine the animal. If I study the bones of the Fulvia I associate it more with agility and precision than with power, much like the gibbon. That also means millimetre precision in all bones. You will be surprised when you measure the body and sub-frame. Most are distorted. Quite a few special and standard tools are needed to make sure the body and sub-frame have the correct dimensions. Interestingly my piano tuner, who also restores concert piano’s, recognized the function of the bones of the Fulvia berlina immediately. The coupé? Mmmm. Not nearly as beautiful as the berlina. Nevertheless, agility is what the Fulvia is about. Like the gibbon. See how the gibbon manages to keep his speed when turning corners. Has nothing to do with power. Power becomes an issue for the gibbon if he breaks a bone and it heals under an angle. He looses the millimetre precision. He must turn corners slowly. On open ground the tigers my be faster than the gibbon. When driving your Fulvia stay away from motorway and race tracks unless you are a masochist.
The question is do I set the factory timing while many forum posting suggests to advance the timing a bit. The answer is yes. Motivation above.
Since we are supposedly going though a Corona crisis, there is more to learn from our Fulvia. Often the word “better” is used in combination with changes such as advancing ignition more. The criterion for “better” is not specified. Better has no objective meaning. It cannot be anything else than the the projection on the car of an old personal trauma, which is most likely anchored on L3 (lumbar vertebra nr 3). In my case L5. Agility is the victim. Movement is limited to straight forward and the directions become better or more. Sometimes the cosmos requires to move in different directions such as backward or up and down. This turns out to be impossible. More power is applied to move in the wrong direction even longer. The crisis is invented.
Don’t believe anything I say. Looking at the picture I paint is ok. Not too long though.
I use plugs with built in resistor to reduce peak current and suppress radio interference at the same time. Also I use plug cables with a wire wound core of stainless steel resistance wire. The resistance and inductance reduce peak currents even more and trade high peak current for longer duration of the spark.
When using normal plugs like NGK BPR7ES the Fulvia is very sensitive to the gap. Set the gap to 0.6mm. When the plugs are new the gap is more than 0.6 mm. Iridium plugs like BPR7EIX I leave at the factory set gap. These plugs last very long.
If the fuel air ratio is correct, the mixture burns easily. Check if any attempt to “improve” ignition is not an attempt to mask bad mixture. After 50 years corrosion and wear of the carburetors is more likely than wear on the distributor.
Having said that, the 123 dizzy is an excellent distributor. Remember to select the right curve. DO NOT install the vacuum version. Even if you do not connect it to the vacuum it will react to going up and down the mountain. I install the TUNE only if there is VERY GOOD reason. The factory provided curves are good and cover many types of fuel under many atmospheric conditions and altitudes. Put the original dizzy in the boot.
I set the fixed advance to factory spec to within a degree. Due to the narrow V construction of the engine the crankshaft is short and has only three main bearings. There is no room for a wide bearing in the center. The center bearing is very narrow wile it serves two con rods in near position and 2 in second position.
If the mixture is ignited earlier it means that combustion is finished earlier. It is a long time ago I rode bicycles. I do remember though it is important to apply power to the pedals at the right moment to arrive at the destination without overtiring myself and without destroying the crank. If the combustion is finished early the load on the crankshaft bearings (main and con rod) increases rapidly. Also the load increases on the head, head bolts, piston rings, cylinder walls etc. The center bearing of the crankshaft will be on the copper very quickly.
I learn a lot from the Fulvia (and Flavia).
Watch the following movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPXkUXXFoCw
The difference between the tigers and the gibbon is that the tigers have their weight under the pelvis. The gibbon has its weight over the pelvis. The latter is unstable but infinitely more flexible. It requires quite a bit of computing power to coordinate its movements. It is not only the brain power, every cell, every tissue, every bone has its function in the distributed computing process. The bones look very much like mechanical function generators as for instance found in the Kugelfischer injection control unit.
The Fulvia (and Flavia) have the weight (at the front) on the upper wishbone thus on top of the swivel. It is an unstable situation like with the gibbon. A mechanical computer keeps it stable. The aluminium towers, double wishbones, swivels, cross members control the position of the wheels with computer precision. The paleontologist says the bones determine the animal. If I study the bones of the Fulvia I associate it more with agility and precision than with power, much like the gibbon. That also means millimetre precision in all bones. You will be surprised when you measure the body and sub-frame. Most are distorted. Quite a few special and standard tools are needed to make sure the body and sub-frame have the correct dimensions. Interestingly my piano tuner, who also restores concert piano’s, recognized the function of the bones of the Fulvia berlina immediately. The coupé? Mmmm. Not nearly as beautiful as the berlina. Nevertheless, agility is what the Fulvia is about. Like the gibbon. See how the gibbon manages to keep his speed when turning corners. Has nothing to do with power. Power becomes an issue for the gibbon if he breaks a bone and it heals under an angle. He looses the millimetre precision. He must turn corners slowly. On open ground the tigers my be faster than the gibbon. When driving your Fulvia stay away from motorway and race tracks unless you are a masochist.
The question is do I set the factory timing while many forum posting suggests to advance the timing a bit. The answer is yes. Motivation above.
Since we are supposedly going though a Corona crisis, there is more to learn from our Fulvia. Often the word “better” is used in combination with changes such as advancing ignition more. The criterion for “better” is not specified. Better has no objective meaning. It cannot be anything else than the the projection on the car of an old personal trauma, which is most likely anchored on L3 (lumbar vertebra nr 3). In my case L5. Agility is the victim. Movement is limited to straight forward and the directions become better or more. Sometimes the cosmos requires to move in different directions such as backward or up and down. This turns out to be impossible. More power is applied to move in the wrong direction even longer. The crisis is invented.
Don’t believe anything I say. Looking at the picture I paint is ok. Not too long though.
Re: Ignition timing point
A very interesting thread, I hope you don't mind med reviving it!
I have a 1966 coupe that I have used for years with a 123, a Fulvia 4BR-version.
Its a 1,2litre with the number 818.130 * 13787 on the flange near the starter.
So I have used setting number 2 on the distributor.
But, I realize now that I have not done any fine tuning with a stroboscope after the installation .
However, on my Fulvia there is no mark on the flywheel except for a very tiny "p".
And I would guess the p means Punto, or TDC.
Should I aim for the tiny p when using a stroboscope, or should I aim for two or three teeth earlier?
Best regards
Torstein
I have a 1966 coupe that I have used for years with a 123, a Fulvia 4BR-version.
Its a 1,2litre with the number 818.130 * 13787 on the flange near the starter.
So I have used setting number 2 on the distributor.
But, I realize now that I have not done any fine tuning with a stroboscope after the installation .
However, on my Fulvia there is no mark on the flywheel except for a very tiny "p".
And I would guess the p means Punto, or TDC.
Should I aim for the tiny p when using a stroboscope, or should I aim for two or three teeth earlier?
Best regards
Torstein
Last edited by impaw on 03 Jun 2022, 14:11, edited 1 time in total.